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Could someone explain this to non-gunowners?
.22lr is a common, low-powered round that can be lethal, but is not quickly or reliably so. For self defense, you want something that will incapacitate your assailant as quickly and reliably as possible. 9mm is usually considered the “sweet spot” for using a handgun to defend against human assailants.
It’s bad when a gun doesn’t fire when you pull the trigger, but it’s FAR WORSE when a gun does fire when you don’t pull the trigger. Taurus semi-automatic handguns sometimes fall into the latter category.
The worst I’ve heard about Hi-Point guns is that they’re unergonomic. They’re probably the “best of bad options”, but I don’t have any direct experience with them.
what’s ‘ccw’? googling just returned my local police department lol
Concealed carry weapon
Hi-Points, in my experience, are alright function wise; but are also oversized, unergonomic bricks.
Tbh, it’s a little exaggerated though.
Yeah, taurus has a habit of poor quality control, and hipoint is essentially a gamble on whether or not any given trigger pull will do more than exercise your finger, but it’s still better than nothing at all. Not better than other more reliable options, but still.
The 22lr bit refers to a very common caliber round. It is, however, a fairly low powered round, and isn’t a big bullet at all. Despite that, if you are using a firearm that shoots it reliably, I would argue that it has a place as a defensive round (it definitely has a place in hunting and target shooting).
A lot of what matters if you’re shooting under pressure is your ability to hit your target reliably. A 22 isn’t going to be a one-hit drop unless you either get lucky or are calm enough to be very precise in your aim (unlikely even if you’ve trained under pressure, even at the distances that would matter for the statement in the post). But it is still better than many other options that aren’t firearms, and it’s still better in specific cases where the person may not be able to handle anything with more power.
Firearms are like cameras. The best one is the one you have with you. Should you pick a more capable brand, or caliber? Yeah. But if you’re unable to afford or reliably hit a target with other firearm options, and you need a potentially lethal weapon, then you use what you can, and just practice enough with it to maximize its potential.
If anyone passing by has one of those brands, and it’s giving you trouble, try different ammo until you hit on one that’s reliable in it. Even hipoint cycles some ammo reliably, so you go for what will feed correctly for a full mag.
If you’re shopping still, and one of those brands is your only affordable option, try a revolver from taurus. Revolvers are pretty much dummy proof as far as brands go, so the usual issues aren’t going to apply.
Don’t expect either brand to last for decades of regular shooting, but they’ll get the job done short term.
Where does one go to start learning what to buy?
Well, there’s no single, best way. Communities like this are good for crowd sourcing info, but you have to take it with a grain of salt since everyone has some degree of difference of opinion.
A local shooting club is usually going to work well because you can see the options in use, and have the possibility of someone letting you try a specific firearm.
There’s a ton of websites offering product reviews, but you run into bias and the possibility of reviews being paid.
YouTube is decent enough since there’s so many people doing demonstrations along with explanations for their opinions. As an example, if you don’t mind long winded explanations, there’s a channel called hickok45 that’s this old dude shooting guns and talking about them in a realistic way. The problem with YouTube is that it’s YouTube, and that means you don’t know who you’re monetizing. That isn’t a big deal overall, good info is good info, but there’s a good degree of overlap between the right wing and firearm information, so if that’s an issue, it takes a lot of work to avoid individual channels that are jerks.
Ideally, a gun shop would be able to guide your purchase as well, and some do a great job of it. But they’re selling a product, so they have an incentive to lean to profit over good info to a degree, so that grain of salt is needed.
I personally prefer a mix when I’m thinking about buying something new/different. I have a range I go to that “rents” guns, and the three shooting clubs I’m in are great for in person discussion. But online resources like this community are also great, and you’ll have access to more opinions, and might get niche bits of advice that you won’t find unless you have hundreds of people involved.
Thank you. I’ll check out the gentleman you mentioned in YouTube. I thought about going to a local shooting range. Didn’t think about shooting club. Shopping for anything is such a process now, huh?
A friend showed me a Cz sp01 9mm. I remember liking the feel of it. But it’s @ 1,500. That’s a fair chunk of change for me. Not sure what the budget is for a good piece? And elsewhere in this thread it sounded like a 9mm might not be the way to go, anyhow
Yeah, gun shopping is always a process, but the way the market has expanded the last decade or so makes it more difficult for new shooters. Used to be that there really wasn’t much in the way of junk out there, just slightly less good. Certainly not much that would utterly fail the way some hipoint products can.
Well, that model of cz is on the high end of things. The good part is that it’s worth the price tag in terms of durability and function. Great firearms imo.
If you’re buying new, don’t waste time with anything that’s under 300 unless you’ve had a chance to thoroughly research the exact model.
Again, for new, you can end up with some damn fine handguns in the $3-500 range. Glock, Sig Sauer, Smith & Wesson, and a lot of other reliable brands have offerings in that range.
If you’re going used, you run into the low to mid end range overlapping a lot more, so you can’t really set a price where you’re going to be reasonably certain you’re getting something good. There’s used glocks out there in great shape that you can snag for maybe 300 with some luck. Some in rough shape go for less, but are still perfectly good in function; they’re just beat up visually. But a visually pristine used taurus might only be fifty bucks less, despite not being as good a buy overall.
As far as caliber, there’s a lot to be said for 9mm. It’s usually easy to find, and if you stick with a major brand, the aftermarket accessories are wide open. The ammo is also relatively cheap. There’s also plenty to be said against it, like it lacking one-hit stopping power (which isn’t a guarantee with any handgun a beginner spoke should be looking at, but still), and the supply chain issues with the ammo recently. But it really depends on individual needs/wants.
Is 9 the ideal beginners’ caliber? Ehhh, probably not. I’d rather a new shooter start with something even gentler to learn fundamentals with. But if someone is only going to buy 1 handgun, it’s difficult to pick a better round to start out with. It’s almost certain that a total noob can handle 9, and that means they’ll practice more, and that matters. But it is a debated topic for sure.
I’d definitely stick to buying new, just to get rid of some variables. Is .45 the default ammo — but better not to buy in the beginning?
45 tends to be a favorite among long term shooters, particularly us older guys. Good stopping power, not so much recoil it’s a big problem, and usually easy to get. But it isn’t really a good beginner’s choice, imo. If you start with it, and get good with it, it tends to set you up very well since it does have enough recoil you have to learn how to stay on target between rounds. However, the learning curve is worse because of that.
There’s ammo that’s way more potent, for sure, but it’s the absolute most kick I’d ever put in a beginner’s hands.
Mind you, there isn’t really a default ammo choice across the board. It is a very popular pick for personal and home defense. But it isn’t ideal for concealed carry for everyone’s preferences because you just can’t carry as many rounds in a compact form factor. I personally carry a full sized handgun as my concealed carry because I’m a big dude and it won’t show, so I carry 45. If I can’t handle something with the 14 rounds +1 in the two magazines I keep on me, I’m screwed anyway, so I’d rather have the extra punch.
If I couldn’t carry a full sized concealed option, I’d probably either step down to a 9mm, or switch to a revolver in 38 or 357, whichever I could get a good deal on. The kind of ammo in between 9mil and 45 for semi auto is good, but not significantly different performance wise, and tend to cost more since they aren’t as popular. Which is why I’d go with 38/357 for a wheel gun. I like cheap and easy to find ammo lol.
Also, as a side note, I’ve mostly been talking in reference to a general purpose carry and range shooting handgun. Which is what most people asking what you’re asking are wanting to know, but there are other applications that might change things, like a desire to shoot competitively at some point, or wanting to hunt with a handgun (which is very niche tbh).
My advice overall? For a first handgun, in the 3-700 buck range, pick up a 9mm, probably a sig or glock since they’re popular enough to run into good prices sometimes. Learn how to shoot, get used to all the safety and carry rules, and then figure out exactly what your needs are as you go. Resale value on the popular brands is solid, so you won’t lose much by selling and switching to a different caliber in a year or two, if that’s where you end up. Same way if you just want a fancier handgun in 9mm, you’ll have part of the new cost covered by the resale.
If you purchase a firearm for self defense or other practical purposes, you’ll want to practice on a regular basis. Unless you have a way to practice without going to a range (like if you live in an area where it’d be legal to just go set up cans in the back yard) I recommend asking around for range recommendations so you can find one that has a culture that will welcome you.
I know people don’t like reddit, but that’s a pretty niche question for a platform this small. Asking the liberal gunowners subreddit, or the subreddit for your local community if there are any ranges they’d reccomend as a place for a queer or progressive person to go safely practice on a regular basis could be really helpful. There’s likely also a queer gunowners community, but I don’t know without looking what that’d be called.
If you know any folks in your actual area that shoot, chatting with them is a great way to get local advice, and they might be willing to go to ranges with you and help you find a place that’s welcoming. Its a lot easier to step into an unfamiliar place with someone next to you, especially if they’re already used to going to ranges and know how to navigate that space.
For me, I could probably ask the kink community in my area as I know there are some veterans in that crowd who could take me with if I were looking for a place to go shooting as a queer person.
Thank you, and noted. I’m going to make a point of visiting a few ranges in the area - and maybe while visiting family for the holidays (they live in more gun country) - before purchasing. I.do intend to make a regular practice.of it; I haven’t done it in ages, but I’ve done some shooting before and found it meditative
❤️
Taurus and Hipoint are bottom of the barrel cheap brands, and 22lr is one of the smallest calibers with very little stopping power.
No, Hi-Point makes the highest quality wares in the world. Everyone knows this. Ah, but they could never match the venerable USFA Zip.
Thanks 💜
Unless you get a clean headshot.
These are the cheapest guns and really are the meaning of ‘you get what you pay for’ also 22s are more of a vermin round, so while I would consider bigots of any color vermin, you can see many post on the internet of people who have been shot by a 22 and its only like an inch into them. So for stopping power a 22 will not stop anyone if they really mean to do you harm it will only add more sauce.
I am not a gun person, so I could have a lot of this wrong but here is what my cursory understanding is. You want protection for close range, where aiming isnt needed 38 snub nose (as the bullet will go wide of a point past like 20 yards as the barrel isnt that long [the reason its called a snub nose] to really train it) and its small enough to carry in a small bag. This will only give you 6 shots and reloading under duress ISNT going to be easy unless training or other mechanics are with you. So if you only have a small worry or just I wanna be safe, this is going to be peace of mind you will need, and if that peace was needed after all, a 38 round to the main mass of a person will slow or outright stop them (not that you should stop, a lot of laws say if you have the mind to think about it you could have ran, you should pull the trigger till it doesnt go bang any more, or freak out after the first bang and loose it, but this is why you should do SOME shooting somewhere, you dont wanna pull it and then drop it and then the other gains it.) .
You want something with more ammo and more stopping power for more understood levels of bigots. I would say a .45, this gives you a more range of point and shoot and if it really is stacked amount of people it can go thru people into others, at this point you are just giving people understanding death is something they should consider on their end not just their unreal want to give it to others.
As to the second part, you wanna go with a gun maker you have heard of from movies or lawsuits against gunmakers (except highpoint the one aginst them was just for flooding the streets with cheep guns) so like colt, beretta, maverick arms, glock, sig sauer, ruger, and smith and wesson. This is not an end all be all list just the ones I know. If you are going to buy, you should be making two trips, you need to go get an idea of what feels good in your hand for weight and hold. Then you need a day or two and some internetting into is this brand garbage or is there known issues with this model (glocks are like this, they change the resin they use and some times it makes the gun EXTRA loud, I have 2 hand guns and both were more powerful then the glock 9mm and it was twice as loud, like I could feel it in my chest loud). Then now armed with information you can go back take another feel of the gun, make sure it really is what you want (have a second in mind), now also buy two boxes of ammo, you are going to want to shoot one box over the next few days getting you used to the sound, kick, and just over all familiar. The other will be what you need for the gun. Some will say (and its not bad in thought) you should buy a box of ammo each year or even 6 months and use the old one at the range so you keep up your skills. But while its kinda making it your hobby at that point, there is some good info about it so you use the oldest ammo in case it ages and could give you issues when you need it most, but its a hard sell for those that dont even like the thing around.
Lastly you do need to care for it, there is oiling it needs, ask the counter person about it. The revolver only has one oiling point for the most part (three but I have never been told to oil the trigger and hammer) but the actual revolver part might need oiling every so often (again this year cadence comes in, if you fire once a year put a dab of oil at the pin spin it a few times, then wipe and put it back in its case. This will get rid of any gunk that it might have got from being in its bag or carrier you have it in when out and about.) But with the other you are dealing with a lot more moving parts on any magazine fed gun (the ones that have the bullets in a carrier that slots into the handle bottom) you will need to oil the slide and some points inside (again ask the people at the counter, and if you find them stand offish the internet will help you).
One last thing about 9mm, from what I gather they are good at some range, but they go thru like a .45 but they also dont take a chunk out with them, so you will end up just putting holes in them and if its not a vital part they will be able to keep coming. There is also some words for those that might live in a PB area or other militia areas that might think their hate is good and needs to be acted on. If they look to have armor at all, legs, arms and head are the areas you wanna aim for, you have a snub, aim for the groin, you have a 45 aim for a shoulder or groin. The groin will give you lots of big blood carrying areas, you will leave them able to shoot if they can get past the shock and pain, but we are hoping they loose to much blood to do it correctly. Shoulder will take out an arm and lets hope its the one they need. And if you are shaking you could hit the head and this will do what we are hoping for, stopping them to protect yourself.
I hope this helps people, and if I am wrong on some issues please correct this, I just want everyone to feel safe.
Okay so what do I buy? Guns aren’t cool to me and I want one for my camper and one for my house.
This video demonstrates what I’m talking about.
What do you wish to use them for? Do you intend to carry full-time? Do you want to hunt?
General home defense? 12ga shotgun.
Home defense but not a fan of a shotgun frankly
Ok, if no shotgun then get a 9mm or .45 pistol. I prefer 9mm because it is generally lighter. I have a glock 17 that I like.
An AR15 or a pistol caliber carbine are my go to recommendations for home defence because with a rifle stock you will be more accurate & faster.
I got a Hi-Point .45 carbine and can’t make it fail in any way. Weird gun though. Nothing about it is standard, heavy as a brick, forget taking it apart, kicks harder than my .45 pistols, and I’m pretty sure the bolt was cut from 10-pounds of pig iron. Flawless shooting even using remanned, cheapo ammo. All of that is inline with what other owners have to say.
I’ve had a titanium Taurus Tracker 627 since way before they stopped making 'em. I’ve put thousands and thousands of rounds through it, both .357 mag and .38 Special, and other then some minor pitting from foolishly using so many .38s plinking it’s been an amazingly reliable weapon. I’ve said for years that if I ever had to sell off all of my guns but one, that’d be the one I’d keep as it’s super light, 4" barrel so easy to carry if I really feel like I need to in the back woods, and reliable.
Anyway, I guess I’m on Team Not All Taurus lol
I’m glade you won the Taurus lottery but the biggest problem with Taurus is they won’t fix problem guns.
In my case they just discontinued the model instead 😆
Counterpoint: they’re a bad last resort in that they may or may not shoot well (or at all), but in the leadup, where showing you’re armed as intimidation, they’re as good as any other.
You’re not entirely wrong, since in theory these guns can fire and can kill.
However, it should be noted that it’s very dangerous to carry a gun that you can’t or won’t fire, for the purpose of brandishing it. If you encounter someone else that has a gun, brandishing a gun yourself is likely to prompt them to shoot you (and gives them legal cover), when they might not have otherwise done so.
You’re right. My use case scenario was pretty far down the ‘run, hide, fight’ list of options.
Pepper spray would be much higher on my list of reasonable measures. Basically brandishing these would be limited to effectively a last ditch effort.
showing you’re armed as intimidation, they’re as good as any other.
IANAL BIPONTV
The circumstances of your concealed firearm not being concealed have to amount to “Imminent threat of great bodily harm or loss of life”.
Revealing you have a gun, placing your hand on where it is, even “printing” as in it being visible under your clothing, has been considered Brandishing, sometimes a felony and likely a “gun crime”.
Specifically, trying to intimidate is very much illegal, so certianly don’t put it like that, lol.
Circumstances may get you out of jail, maybe even with your rights intact, but even showing your gun after being chased with a bat has been ruled aggrivated assault.
even showing your gun after being chased with a bat has been ruled aggrivated assault.
As everyone’s fave TV lawyer, do you have the case this was pulled from?
As for ‘intimidation’, yeah. I was (and still am) struggling to find the right word for ‘am dangerous and could cause everyone here grievous harm, but wont’.
It was in Louisiana, there are vaguely similar cases from few years ago, which is making it harder to find the one I’m referring to. This one was from the 80s.
Nevermind I found it:
Both teacher and student were originally convicted of aggrivated assault, teacher was eventually acquitted by the state supreme court.
Similar cases happen somewhat frequently. Without context, all of a sudden having a gun appear can make you look like the aggressor. It’s a very nuanced topic, although that’s probably for a good reason.
Depending on the jurisdiction, other evidence like cameras, and disparity between you and the aggressor, you might just be able to whip it out like a rapper with “lil” in thier name.
Conversely, someone seeing the corner of it when you reach up to grab something from the top shelf at the grocery store might get you arrested and stripped of your ability to carry.
I know there must be some kind of language that would work there, but I’m really not sure what is it would be. “We won’t take this lying down” or “It will be better for you if this ends peacefully” sound good to me, but might not to a jury.
I wouldn’t describe my actions in a self-defense incident as intimidation.
My word choice was a poor fit at best, but i couldn’t find the right words.
It’s closer to aposematism, but still not quite there.
at that point I’d rather use a .25 PCP and get legal automatic AND save my eardrums.
