I’m getting really tired of all the imaginary what-about-ism from ev-sceptics.
It’s a total non-issue for most countries. The daily difference between peak hours and non-peak hours is much larger than what could even potentially be used for charging EVs.
The industrial electric consumption is much much larger than what is required for personal transportation.
Last year, in Denmark, a concrete factory switched from using one electric oven to using a more efficient electric oven. They obviously did this to save money and lowering their environmental impact, but… this single switch in one single factory saved more electricity than is required to charge every single EV in the entire country.
Come on… please, people, just have a look at the scale of things before starting another baseless fearmongering rant against having to eventually drive electric…
I as pro-EV as the best of them. A cradle to grave emissions drop of 40% is a great step forward on reducing transport emissions (public transport and active transportation are a whole other aspect of this we’ll avoid here). However, characterizing the energy gap for EV charging as a non-issue is disingenuous.
You’ve correctly pointed out that peak hours are when the grid is most strained and vulnerable. Well, if most everyone who drives to work starts charging their EV when they get home from work, that is at the highest peak of the day: around 5-7pm. It’s the addition to the peak curve that’s the real concern. In most places, that means triggering on fossil fuel burning facilities to meet that peak demand. It also means increased peak loads on the transmission infrastructure that could overwhelm it.
That being said, there are some simple solutions: e.g. charge EVs on off-peak hours, smoothing out the demand on the grid. Where I live there is already an incentive to charge overnight in the form of ultra low overnight rates. I’m sure we’ll find the solutions, but please don’t pretend it’s not a problem.
It’s not a critical problem. It won’t block anything. There are already possible solutions. As you said, utilities have been rolling out time of use metering for half a century, and already want it everywhere. My EV already has scheduling that can take advantage of that, and time of use metering would give me incentive to use that
It’s also not hard to imagine a service that could more intelligently coordinate the load for very low impact: I already have such a thing for my air conditioning
I charge at home. The general setup is that to utilize the best pricing people switch to variable pricing when getting an EV, because it uses a lot of electricity and it’s really easy to time the charging.
The best prices are obviously always out of the peak hours.
Anyway, why are we asking millions of people to time their consumption, when it would be easier to ask a single factory or two to time their consumption to utilise the best pricing?
The article is from UK and I know their grid is in peak at teatime… like, would it be to much to ask the factory to take a break while people have water to boil?
I agree that EVs have the potential to solve the very problem they’re creating, but as of today there are almost no viable solutions apart from Tesla’s very expensive Powerwall system.
The problem is everyone plugs in their EVs with zero regard for the large strain they’re putting on the grid. They charge ~10x faster than they need to and don’t utilize off-peak charging typically built into the vehicles. Because it just doesn’t occur to them.
In the future I assume we’ll have something akin to connected thermostats where the vehicle can self-manage charging in cooperation with electric providers.
Are people really that dumb that they willingly pay peak pricing to charge their EV? Or are significant numbers of people in CA not on TOU rates? Everything I’ve seen suggest TOU rates are quite effective in getting users to shift certain loads (and EVs are easily shiftable).
People don’t like TOU metering because they’re afraid of getting price gouged. I was too, who can trust a corporation not to take advantage? But now with an EV, I have an obvious use case where it would give me huge benefit. I’m ready to switch over
I’ll have to replace my hvac in the next couple years and am mostly annoyed at the lack of storage heating for heat pumps. My parents had that for electric heating and it worked great. Instead of a baseboard strip, every room had something about the size of a standard radiator - it absorbed heat overnight when rates were low and you just controlled a fan to adjust heat throughout the day. Where are those for heat pump head units?
I wouldn’t generalize that people “don’t like TOU”. People understand that energy costs more during peak periods and are generally receptive to these market forces. People are used to driving around to save $0.02/gallon on gas, they can run their dishwasher later in the evening and adjust their thermostat slightly to save money. Plus obviously off peak EV charging.
As to the heat pump situation, you’re describing an air to water heat pump and a large buffer tank. You heat the tank off peak and it distributes the water throughout the day. You can then optimize to price, but the equation is complicated because the COP varies dramatically with outdoor temperature. These systems just aren’t that common in the US though, where forced air or ductless heads are dominant, but people absolutely replace boilers with heat pump driven hot water systems. We should see more options (e.g. R290 monoblocs) in the US at some point, hopefully.
Sorry can’t find it again. It was in the news at the beginning of 2023 after the energy price “crisis” in 2022 following the Ukraine war.
What I can find now are articles and statements about their savings (in Danish). The switch of ovens actually happened in 2018 and they saved 13.6 gigawatts pro anno. That’s a lot, but not enough to cover the EV charging. Then in 2023 they switched a fuel source that cut down a lot of CO2, and while that is not exactly an electricity saving, it is equal to the production of 300 gigawatts, which again entirely depends on how it is produced (and presented).
Anyway. Those figures are in the ballpark of what a newly erected wind turbine farm can provide, but it happened in a very short time and within less than 1 km radius on one single production facility: Aalborg Portland.
Mind, this is the largest energy consuming business in the country, but it still goes to show how much the industry can achieve with the right set of mind.
I used to work in the electricity sector and I can easily point at 4-5 other heavy consuming factories just in this area, who each consume more electricity than the entire residential market within the same area, car charging or not. It’s as simple as sorting a list, but who’s going to address it?
Also, I’d rather have that kind of production on electricity than other fuels, because at least our electricity is mainly renewable except for peak hours.
I’m getting really tired of all the imaginary what-about-ism from ev-sceptics.
It’s a total non-issue for most countries. The daily difference between peak hours and non-peak hours is much larger than what could even potentially be used for charging EVs.
The industrial electric consumption is much much larger than what is required for personal transportation.
Last year, in Denmark, a concrete factory switched from using one electric oven to using a more efficient electric oven. They obviously did this to save money and lowering their environmental impact, but… this single switch in one single factory saved more electricity than is required to charge every single EV in the entire country.
Come on… please, people, just have a look at the scale of things before starting another baseless fearmongering rant against having to eventually drive electric…
I as pro-EV as the best of them. A cradle to grave emissions drop of 40% is a great step forward on reducing transport emissions (public transport and active transportation are a whole other aspect of this we’ll avoid here). However, characterizing the energy gap for EV charging as a non-issue is disingenuous.
You’ve correctly pointed out that peak hours are when the grid is most strained and vulnerable. Well, if most everyone who drives to work starts charging their EV when they get home from work, that is at the highest peak of the day: around 5-7pm. It’s the addition to the peak curve that’s the real concern. In most places, that means triggering on fossil fuel burning facilities to meet that peak demand. It also means increased peak loads on the transmission infrastructure that could overwhelm it.
That being said, there are some simple solutions: e.g. charge EVs on off-peak hours, smoothing out the demand on the grid. Where I live there is already an incentive to charge overnight in the form of ultra low overnight rates. I’m sure we’ll find the solutions, but please don’t pretend it’s not a problem.
It’s not a critical problem. It won’t block anything. There are already possible solutions. As you said, utilities have been rolling out time of use metering for half a century, and already want it everywhere. My EV already has scheduling that can take advantage of that, and time of use metering would give me incentive to use that
It’s also not hard to imagine a service that could more intelligently coordinate the load for very low impact: I already have such a thing for my air conditioning
I charge at home. The general setup is that to utilize the best pricing people switch to variable pricing when getting an EV, because it uses a lot of electricity and it’s really easy to time the charging. The best prices are obviously always out of the peak hours.
Anyway, why are we asking millions of people to time their consumption, when it would be easier to ask a single factory or two to time their consumption to utilise the best pricing?
The article is from UK and I know their grid is in peak at teatime… like, would it be to much to ask the factory to take a break while people have water to boil?
It is a legitimate current issue in California.
I agree that EVs have the potential to solve the very problem they’re creating, but as of today there are almost no viable solutions apart from Tesla’s very expensive Powerwall system.
The problem is everyone plugs in their EVs with zero regard for the large strain they’re putting on the grid. They charge ~10x faster than they need to and don’t utilize off-peak charging typically built into the vehicles. Because it just doesn’t occur to them.
In the future I assume we’ll have something akin to connected thermostats where the vehicle can self-manage charging in cooperation with electric providers.
Are people really that dumb that they willingly pay peak pricing to charge their EV? Or are significant numbers of people in CA not on TOU rates? Everything I’ve seen suggest TOU rates are quite effective in getting users to shift certain loads (and EVs are easily shiftable).
People don’t like TOU metering because they’re afraid of getting price gouged. I was too, who can trust a corporation not to take advantage? But now with an EV, I have an obvious use case where it would give me huge benefit. I’m ready to switch over
I’ll have to replace my hvac in the next couple years and am mostly annoyed at the lack of storage heating for heat pumps. My parents had that for electric heating and it worked great. Instead of a baseboard strip, every room had something about the size of a standard radiator - it absorbed heat overnight when rates were low and you just controlled a fan to adjust heat throughout the day. Where are those for heat pump head units?
I wouldn’t generalize that people “don’t like TOU”. People understand that energy costs more during peak periods and are generally receptive to these market forces. People are used to driving around to save $0.02/gallon on gas, they can run their dishwasher later in the evening and adjust their thermostat slightly to save money. Plus obviously off peak EV charging.
As to the heat pump situation, you’re describing an air to water heat pump and a large buffer tank. You heat the tank off peak and it distributes the water throughout the day. You can then optimize to price, but the equation is complicated because the COP varies dramatically with outdoor temperature. These systems just aren’t that common in the US though, where forced air or ductless heads are dominant, but people absolutely replace boilers with heat pump driven hot water systems. We should see more options (e.g. R290 monoblocs) in the US at some point, hopefully.
Found it, but not available where I am. Choices like these could really help
Source?
Sorry can’t find it again. It was in the news at the beginning of 2023 after the energy price “crisis” in 2022 following the Ukraine war.
What I can find now are articles and statements about their savings (in Danish). The switch of ovens actually happened in 2018 and they saved 13.6 gigawatts pro anno. That’s a lot, but not enough to cover the EV charging. Then in 2023 they switched a fuel source that cut down a lot of CO2, and while that is not exactly an electricity saving, it is equal to the production of 300 gigawatts, which again entirely depends on how it is produced (and presented).
Anyway. Those figures are in the ballpark of what a newly erected wind turbine farm can provide, but it happened in a very short time and within less than 1 km radius on one single production facility: Aalborg Portland.
Mind, this is the largest energy consuming business in the country, but it still goes to show how much the industry can achieve with the right set of mind.
I used to work in the electricity sector and I can easily point at 4-5 other heavy consuming factories just in this area, who each consume more electricity than the entire residential market within the same area, car charging or not. It’s as simple as sorting a list, but who’s going to address it?
Also, I’d rather have that kind of production on electricity than other fuels, because at least our electricity is mainly renewable except for peak hours.