You’re arguing the process of plate tectonics is ontologically wicked.
Not at all. You’re still fighting a strawman. The existence of volcanoes and cancer isn’t evil. If it was however consciously created by an omnipotent and omniscient being, that would be evil. The paradox doesn’t relate to our reality itself, only to the claim of said characteristics in a god in relation to said reality. You still seem confused about that part.
But this sounds like Perdition. Absolutely nightmarish. An eternal hellscape I would wish to escape at any cost.
If you truly cannot a reality with less suffering than ours you are truly unimaginative, mate. Or completely ignorant to the suffering that exists in this world. Or maybe both.
But it is also perfectly possible that all of this exists without a Singular Perfect Entity at its origin.
Right, which is why this is the most obvious answer to the Epicurean paradox: This singular perfect entity doesn’t exist. Congratulation, you’ve now arrived at the same conclusion as Epicurus 2.5 thousand years ago.
Not at all. You’re still fighting a strawman. The existence of volcanoes and cancer isn’t evil. If it was however consciously created by an omnipotent and omniscient being, that would be evil.
Mean spirited, certainly. But the volcano’s going to be here long before you are. This is more akin to you building your house on a bulldozer and then claiming I’m evil if I try to use it.
We’re talking about a concept of god who’s omnicscient, don’t forget that. In your metaphor I knew perfetcly well beforehand were you would build your house and consciously put my bulldozer there, knowing it would one day destroy your home.
Using my power and knowledge to so something that will harm you is mean spirited. The same must be said for god. Exceptions would be if god didn’t have another choice or didn’t know better. Both of those are addressed in the Epicurean paradox.
An omnipotent god would have been able to build a world without suffering. His volcanoes would maybe spray rainbows.
God didn’t build a world without suffering. Therefore we can conclude: It is not possible for him to be at the same time fully able and willing to do so. Or to put it more formally: A omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving god is incompatible with a world that includes suffering.
We’re talking about a concept of god who’s omnicscient
Within the context of Free Will, which sets up another paradox. “How can you be omniscient if I’ve got the ability to behave unexpectedly?”
And that’s where you get into questions of degree. I can be a mechanic who knows how a car engine works without accounting for every particle within the engine block. To a novice, I might look omniscient simply because I’ve got experience and familiarity with a particular problem. But then you come back and insist “If you were a real automotive mechanic, the engine would never break!” What even are we arguing, at that point?
Using my power and knowledge to so something that will harm you is mean spirited.
I’m walking across a yard. Under my feet, there are thousands of tiny creatures crawling about. I have the capacity and the information necessary to see these creatures, if I spend the time and energy. But instead of checking under every footfall for an ant, I wander carelessly through the yard.
Does this mean I am ontologically evil, or simply in a hurry?
God didn’t build a world without suffering.
Suffering is a consequence of our human condition. We experience discomfort and pain as a motivating force, extorting us to change. To build a world - at least, to build a modern world - some degree of suffering is necessary.
A omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving god is incompatible with a world that includes suffering.
I would not consider a world devoid of feeling one that was compatible with an all-loving god. Numbness is not a virtue.
And that’s where you get into questions of degree.
Not at all. The premise is “all-knowing”. That is in fact a mechanic who’s able to account for every particle within the engine block.
I wander carelessly through the yard.
You are not all-powerful. The premise says: god is. If you were easily able to spare all those small insects, deciding to kill them anyway would make you a psychopath.
Suffering is a consequence of our human condition.
Our human condition, within the scenario of the thinking exercise, was very consciously created that way by god.
I would not consider a world devoid of feeling one that was compatible with an all-loving god.
An all-powerful god would have been able to create a reality with feeling, but without suffering. And religion already claims that he can - that’s the idea of heaven or paradise.
You don’t need to be omniscient to appear to be to a sufficiently limited observer.
Yeah, but the premise of the abrahamic god says he is, that’s the point.
The insistence that nothing should ever be unpleasant at any time for any reason is the mentality of a toddler.
Back to the insults? That’s weak. Maybe you’ve never experiences anything truly horrible in your life. Good for you! Bad for you for forgetting about the rest of us though, really, that’s actually pretty rude. You’re reinforcing the notion that the only way christians can get out of the paradox is by becoming very, very ignorant.
Imagine a young child that painfully dies of cancer. The parents ask: How could god let that happen? How can he be all powerful and not save our sweet child from all this unnecessary pain?
Not at all. You’re still fighting a strawman. The existence of volcanoes and cancer isn’t evil. If it was however consciously created by an omnipotent and omniscient being, that would be evil. The paradox doesn’t relate to our reality itself, only to the claim of said characteristics in a god in relation to said reality. You still seem confused about that part.
If you truly cannot a reality with less suffering than ours you are truly unimaginative, mate. Or completely ignorant to the suffering that exists in this world. Or maybe both.
Right, which is why this is the most obvious answer to the Epicurean paradox: This singular perfect entity doesn’t exist. Congratulation, you’ve now arrived at the same conclusion as Epicurus 2.5 thousand years ago.
That doesn’t follow
If I suddenly acquired a million dollars and your home address and use them to bulldoze your living room, would that be evil?
Mean spirited, certainly. But the volcano’s going to be here long before you are. This is more akin to you building your house on a bulldozer and then claiming I’m evil if I try to use it.
We’re talking about a concept of god who’s omnicscient, don’t forget that. In your metaphor I knew perfetcly well beforehand were you would build your house and consciously put my bulldozer there, knowing it would one day destroy your home.
Using my power and knowledge to so something that will harm you is mean spirited. The same must be said for god. Exceptions would be if god didn’t have another choice or didn’t know better. Both of those are addressed in the Epicurean paradox.
An omnipotent god would have been able to build a world without suffering. His volcanoes would maybe spray rainbows.
God didn’t build a world without suffering. Therefore we can conclude: It is not possible for him to be at the same time fully able and willing to do so. Or to put it more formally: A omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving god is incompatible with a world that includes suffering.
Within the context of Free Will, which sets up another paradox. “How can you be omniscient if I’ve got the ability to behave unexpectedly?”
And that’s where you get into questions of degree. I can be a mechanic who knows how a car engine works without accounting for every particle within the engine block. To a novice, I might look omniscient simply because I’ve got experience and familiarity with a particular problem. But then you come back and insist “If you were a real automotive mechanic, the engine would never break!” What even are we arguing, at that point?
I’m walking across a yard. Under my feet, there are thousands of tiny creatures crawling about. I have the capacity and the information necessary to see these creatures, if I spend the time and energy. But instead of checking under every footfall for an ant, I wander carelessly through the yard.
Does this mean I am ontologically evil, or simply in a hurry?
Suffering is a consequence of our human condition. We experience discomfort and pain as a motivating force, extorting us to change. To build a world - at least, to build a modern world - some degree of suffering is necessary.
I would not consider a world devoid of feeling one that was compatible with an all-loving god. Numbness is not a virtue.
Not at all. The premise is “all-knowing”. That is in fact a mechanic who’s able to account for every particle within the engine block.
You are not all-powerful. The premise says: god is. If you were easily able to spare all those small insects, deciding to kill them anyway would make you a psychopath.
Our human condition, within the scenario of the thinking exercise, was very consciously created that way by god.
An all-powerful god would have been able to create a reality with feeling, but without suffering. And religion already claims that he can - that’s the idea of heaven or paradise.
You don’t need to be omniscient to appear to be to a sufficiently limited observer.
Compared to an ant, I am like unto the Titans of ancient Greek Mythology. I don’t need to be omnipotent for an ant to assume I am.
A condition which drives us to Go Forth and Multiply. Not to languish in Eden for eternity.
The insistence that nothing should ever be unpleasant at any time for any reason is the mentality of a toddler.
Yeah, but the premise of the abrahamic god says he is, that’s the point.
Back to the insults? That’s weak. Maybe you’ve never experiences anything truly horrible in your life. Good for you! Bad for you for forgetting about the rest of us though, really, that’s actually pretty rude. You’re reinforcing the notion that the only way christians can get out of the paradox is by becoming very, very ignorant.
Imagine a young child that painfully dies of cancer. The parents ask: How could god let that happen? How can he be all powerful and not save our sweet child from all this unnecessary pain?
What would you answer them?
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