Windows 10 EoL is fast approaching, so I thought I’d give Linux a try on some equipment that won’t be able to upgrade to Windows 11. I wanted to see if I will be able to recommend an option to anyone that asks me what they should do with their old PC.
Many years ago I switched to Gentoo Linux to get through collage. I was very anti-MS at the time. I also currently interact with Linux systems regularly although they don’t have a DE and aren’t for general workstation use.
Ubuntu: easy install. Working desktop. Had issues with getting GPU drivers. App Store had apps that would install but not work. The App Store itself kept failing to update itself with an error that it was still running. It couldn’t clear this hurdle after a reboot so I finally killed the process and manually updated from terminal. Overall, can’t recommend this to a normal user.
Mint: easy install. Switching to nvidia drivers worked without issue. App Store had issues with installing some apps due to missing dependencies that it couldn’t install. Some popular apps would install but wouldn’t run. Shutting the laptop closed results in a prompt to shutdown, but never really shuts off. Update process asks me to pick a fast source (why can’t it do this itself?)
Both: installing apps outside of their respective stores is an adventure in terminal instead of a GUI double-click. Secure boot issues. Constant prompt for password instead of a simple PIN or other form of identity verification.
Search results for basic operations require understanding that what works for Ubuntu might not work for Mint.
While I personally could work with either, I don’t see Linux taking any market share from MS or Apple when windows 10 is retired.
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It’s so wild that I have seen like, four Linux people in my lifetime admit the simple truth that every version of Windows and macOS, iOS and Android since conception have been geared progressively more toward being absolutely friendly to users that are dumb as rocks—in a good way—where Linux has absolutely not. And that this barrier is 100% of the difference between proprietary desktop environments and Linux. Linux is majority developed for power users, full stop. The closest I have seen to the contrary is like, maybe the Adwaita devs, and unfortunately they don’t have the reach to apply their knowledge to essential UX stuff like app installation or hardware compatibility.
This is why I get so frustrated with the “just switch to Linux, loser” crowd, because it’s so utterly disconnected with the reality that most people do not have the resources to invest in any kind of learning curve. It has to be intuitive and accessible from the start. Web developers understand this. MS, Apple, and Google get it. Like, even people who design public transportation understand that they must cater to a user who is drunk and not fluent in the local language when designing signage and systems. Why doesn’t the vast majority of the Linux community get it?
Linux is majority developed for power users, full stop.
I feel this needs to be a sticky at the top of every page on all of Lemmy. This NEEDS to be heard.
With AI being what it is, I’m not going to go past Windows 7.
I’m not going to spend big money on apple devices.
But I can’t figure out Linux. I want to use linux. But I have no ability to.
big fax
careful with w7. not a professional but at least make sure you get a solid up to date antivirus and avoid the sketchier parts of the web :)
I have a version of firefox, that was probably released in 2012, and ublock orgin. Havent had a virus ever. I’m fairly sure even the firewall is off. No idea. Haven’t looked at it in at least 10 years.,
100% agree. I hope Cosmic DE can remedy some of those learning curves, but that is a tough ask from a desktop environment .
I mean heck, it took me several months to fully get accustomed to OS X Tiger when I switched from Win XP back in the day.
interesting, TIL! i will definitely look into this. but yeah it does speak volumes that this isn’t even in alpha yet and it’s 2024. specifically hoping the app store and the bluetooth/audio UX are watertight because those are the primary weak points i see for non-power users in GNOME and such.
also doesn’t exactly exude faith that one of their biggest marketing points is… yet another terminal with gpu rendering. hot take: the point of the desktop metaphor has been to bring the user beyond the terminal since 1970. expecting the average user to go back to relying on text commands for daily use should not be on the table if you are developing a desktop environment.
Please have babies.
Linux is stuck in the I had to do X so you have to do it too mindset. They are generally opposed to user friendly options if it means removing pain they feel is core to the experience.
Nice rant. Doesn’t reflect anything I experienced. From all linux users I know just one is a nerd. And he doesn’t develop or interact with any community.
Stop ranting about your desired workflow and start implementing it if in desperate need.
I agree in regards to a through thought ux though!
Downvotes but non formulated opinion. Elaborate please. I strongly believe I am defending the correct intention.
downvotes because your comment was insulting, rude and bossy. it is very possible to defend the correct intention without being unkind and counterproductive.
You are implying quite a few things here.
And apparently under the assumption that you represent the majority/common sense - again.
mean comment - again, blocked lol
Because a lot of them are the kind of computer geek who makes “normies” hate computer geeks. You know the type: condescending, arrogant, passive aggressive, a mild bully. The kind that enjoys making other people who don’t share their hobby feel stupid. I think they should be forced to work in an auto shop, or a house framing crew, or a plumber crew, and see what it feels like to be made to feel stupid on a skill you have no experience in. I worked IT, and these guys are repulsive, especially while they’re mocking and belittling the elderly, or the mentally disabled.
…they are lucky I don’t have the skills to be in IT. I’m a pretty big guy, and most people confuse me for some hateful ogre out to hurt you. In reality, I want EVERYONE to have a good day! I’m the guy on public transportation who just had a rough day at work, just wants to go home get drunk and watch hockey…but I can’t even do that because my dad decided to call and tell me the results of the game, after I JUST SAID DO NOT SPOIL THE GAME!!! and he proceeds to spoil the game. Now I can’t even relax after a shitty day of work. Yet, I still have to get home, so here I am on the bus…and I see an old woman struggling to get on the bus. Yet the bus driver isn’t lowering the bus.
I’m the guy to get up, help the woman on the bus, and give up my seat for her. I’m still furious at my day, but she wasn’t the cause of it, and I don’t see why the bus driver, nor any other passengers are even attempting to help.
And while I don’t have any stories recently like that on the bus for the disabled, my whole job is pushing people in wheelchairs. My whole job is helping the disabled.
So back to people thinking I’m this big strong ogre, who’s looking to hurt people? I’m not…but there is no quicker way to make that statement true than if you are trying to bully the elderly or disabled. Just because it’s not in my nature to hurt people, doesn’t mean I’m incapable of it.
If I’d have seen those IT guys doing that, they’d have a new hospital bill, and I’d have lost a job. Maybe went to jail. Probably would have hurt myself as much as I hurt them, since I’m not a fighter, but I’d come charging in like a 300lbs bull just fucking shit up.
I’m the same, I want everyone to be happy, and I like to see people win. I despise bullies of any type.
the *nix community has a toxicity problem, absolutely. it’s tradition at this point, a culture stemming back to rtfm. i highly applaud those voices in the FOSS movement that break this stereotype and embrace the user without question.
I’m someone who grew up on Windows but switched to Linux and holy shit was it so much nicer. I don’t know if Windows massively improved or if people are just incapable of comparing something new with something they already know. Because Windows is hard.
99/100 basic users need someone to unfuck their windows install after what, one, two years?
Every time you need to do something non standard you’re basically going from training wheels to “good luck, deputy sysadmin.”
Broken registry. Orphaned cruft.
Malware, spyware.
Maybe 10-12 years ago. I have provided friends and family with tech support for a long time (20+ years) and I’d say I haven’t had any relatives call me for support in 5 years.
It’s part user education, but mostly that the OS is generally so stable and solid that it isn’t necessary anymore.
I personally have two desktops, one windows and one Ubuntu. I use them both equally and have more issues with Ubuntu acting randomly funky than Windows 11.
- Ubuntu – random funkiness
- Windows – malicious funkiness
That’s why I never advanced past Windows 7.
Windows 8 looked like crap.
Windows 9 didn’t exist.
Windows 10 looked like they tried to unfuck Windows 8 with a mild degree of sucsess.
Windows 11 is actively the worst operating system I’ve ever heard of.
Meanwhile, I’ve installed about 6 different versions of linux. I don’t get it. It looks like an operating system that I SHOULD like…but 12 years, and 6 different attempts later, I don’t get it. I gotta remember code to install things?
Something like this:
Sudo fru inst = c:/update install “program”
And it spits out an error because it’s as much jibberish to linux as it is to me.
I just want to click.
Click click. Installed. Done.
I shit you not. I have a case for a raspberry pi. That case has a fan. For some stupid reason, that fan does not have a switch. Instead you need to install that fan with the operating system. I forget the code, but it’s actually really easy. You know what’s NOT easy? Getting the fan to work after I updated everything.
Apperently that shits impossible. Theres even a github page where some guy wrote another code, which I can’t figure out, that unfucks the fucking that any update does.
Then you got some linux users saying “always update and stay up to date!”
Then you got other linux users saying “don’t ever update unless you need to”.
Then there’s android. I like android. I can use android. Android is built on linux. So thats proof you CAN have linux be a stable user friendly operating system.
And 2009-2015 taught me that android can be free of corporate bullshit. Fully customizable. You can install your own take on it. In android they’re called roms, but in linux it’s distros.
Yet I’ve NEVER seen a distro run like android.
I’m sure they could even come pretty close to what windows is. But the people who develop linux have such a hate grudge against windows, that they refuse to admit that windows is the easier to use software, and the masses will only use software thats easy to use.
I’d LOVE to use my equipment I paid 200 dollars for. Instead, the last 3 years it’s sat unused, because the thing runs hot, and I can’t turn the fan on. That’s what is preventing me from playing the 800gb of roms (video games, not android images) I put on that card. That’s whats preventing me from linux. I can’t turn the fan on.
I have provided friends and family with tech support for a long time (20+ years) and I’d say I haven’t had any relatives call me for support in 5 years
That’s cause they don’t use their computer anymore. They do everything on their phones now.
I don’t know what version of XP you’re using, but this is not true in the last decade. The only times I reinstalled Windows was when I bought a bigger SSDs to my notebooks and figure to just do a clean one and play with the partitions a little. I never, ever, needed to reinstall because something was broken, even after updates. And my company still have notebooks running for about 6 years without needing a reinstall, which would be a huge headache.
Now on Ubuntu, Fedora, elementaryOS… I always had those implode for one reason or another, usually thanks to system updates. I got my DE dead by installing an app. I got it locked by uninstalling an app. And I wasn’t even doing fancy stuff like using the terminal to hack stuff.
I really wish I could migrate from Windows, specially now withbthis AI crap. The truth is, Linux is an usability nightmare and it still has a long, long way to go. Even macOS is better, and that’s saying a lot.
To be fair, troubleshooting windows so I could play games in the 90s led to me becoming an actual sysadmin, so that’s cool I guess
Ah, the days of manually editing files in DOS so you could run Warcraft. No thank you.
But you have to admit warcraft was amazing and worth the hassle :)
This way! No, THAT way!
Touche, mon frere. Touche.
Same here, but DOS.
Linux is plenty ready for “most users.” I recently saw a meme that applies here, about experts/enthusiasts overestimating the “average normie” in their field even when they’re trying to account for most people not being on their level.
GPU Drivers, app stores
“Most users” scroll Facebook or Twitter and watch Netflix. Distro comes with firefox? GG. 🤷♂️ While I don’t think its widespread (and hope lol,) ever since the Facebook app integrated a web browser there are people (usually younger iirc) who think Facebook IS the internet. Loads of people almost wouldn’t notice if you switched their os overnight, if they have a desktop/laptop at all.
As for people looking to change to Linux due to MS business decisions, let’s be real - they’re by and large already techies. Its also not the 90s anymore, there are resources abound and SOOOO many users to have your problem before you do.
Personal nitpick for me, nothing to do with OP but the overall sentiment - Using the terminal is NOT THAT BALL CRUSHINGLY HARD as people still make it out to be, certainly not for stuff you may need it for in modern times. I have fedora, I need spotify. “sudo dnf install Spotify” “y” ta da. Certainly not an adventure, IMO.
EDIT: I’m thinking alot of you haven’t used Linux in a long time. I’ve run into an issue before, but people run into issues with windows too and nobody is screeching about that. 🤷♂️ Some of you just straight didn’t read my comment. 🤣
Normal people don’t want to touch the terminal at all.
You really have no clue how inept “most users” are. I’d be extremely surprised if even 20% of the population would be able to use Linux without getting extremely frustrated at the first error, and unable to fix anything themselves.
I recently saw a meme that applies here, about experts/enthusiasts overestimating the “average normie” in their field even when they’re trying to account for most people not being on their level.
Yeah, and if you think that “most users” are ready for linux, you’re in that meme.
Is it still an unpopular opinion if I just hate that I agree with you?
(Writing this from my linux gaming desktop. I don’t use arch btw)
Yes we can be unpopular together.
Hey, if you get enough of you to agree, it’ll be the popular unpopular opinion!
Philosophy time: Is it unpopular opinion if 90% of PC users agree with you?
On the other hand, this is an unpopular opinion on Lemmy
Do I upvote this post if I disagree or only if I know most people disagree with it?
Right???
Which is why I posted it. I was honestly hoping to be proven wrong, but instead I got a lot of victim blaming. Even Linux users aren’t ready to accept mainstream people coming from Windows.
Victim blaming? Who’s the victim?
A bunch of people telling me I did it wrong, or used the wrong distro, or that 90% of normal windows users will know how to troubleshoot software that isn’t installing right by going into terminal.
The victim is either the typical normal user or me depending on these types of responses.
90% of normal windows users will know how to troubleshoot software that isn’t installing right by going into terminal.
I would have said "90% of windows users have no idea what a terminal is. If you told them to use terminal, they would ask “Oh no! Are you dying???”
There’s some merit to offering other distros to try for you, the individual. We’re all nerds, it’s a problem we want to help solve. (Bazzite is my recommendation if you’re up for another shot lol.)
But in terms of “is Linux ready for the average user,” I think Mint is considered pretty widely to be a “just works” sort of distro. It’s certainly fair to use that experience as an example.
No distro “just works” until the whole platform can easily install software by double clicking. You need to be able to uninstall terminal 100% and still have a functioning OS.
The kind of OS a drunk lizard man could sit on a mouse and still operate the OS with his butthole.
THEN it just works.
Why do Windows users feel entitled to the free labor of others.
I don’t think open source developers should feel obligated to chase after “normal users”, they should just make great software. Linux is arguably the most successful OS that has ever existed, if it’s not dominant in one specific shrinking sector is that the worst thing in the world?
Linux (+ everything needed for a desktop) has been a great desktop system for 20+ years, most difficulties aren’t the fault of Linux, they’re the fault of vendors failing to support and/or Microsoft throwing up barriers to competition.
Linux is arguably the most successful OS that has ever existed
…what??? If we’re talking about users using the desktop experience (so like, not systems where linux is the backend, but the user never experiences it), then Windows is the dominant OS platform. If for nothing else than people know how to use it because every business uses it.
Second most used would be iOS.
And then…with maybe less than 1% of users, would be linux. Nobody uses Linux, because nobody knows how the fuck to use it.
Saying Linux is the most dominant OS platform for users is like saying Kwanzaa is the most celebrated religious holiday. I’m 40 years old. I’ve been in jobs where you meet new people every day. Probably have met thousands of people.
I’ve met exactly ONE linux user. Well…I should say linux family. He was a 34 year old, who lived at his grandmothers house, because he lived with his dad, and his 62 year old dad still lived with his 93 year old mom. But, I only interacted with the family for 2-3 hours. I’m still not 100% sure the mom was actually alive. I briefly saw her move, but you could easily convince me it was a weekend at bernies situation.
I cannot give an accurate number on how many windows users I’ve used. It’s far too high.
windows isn’t ready to replace windows. they never have been.
Poor take. 3.1, NT4, 95, 98SE, 2000, xp, 10. All were widely considered to be a considerable improvement over the OS they replaced.
Where Millennium and Visita?? :D
Vista was a sacrifice. They needed vista to be awful so 8+ could fly.
ME was designed by the marketing team.
I really liked Vista, it was the first stable Windows for me that I didn’t have to reinstall once in a while.
Never used 8, I hated it.
Millennium wasn’t just a stunt, but it got bad reputation bcs of not-really compatible drivers with W98.
sure good old fashioned stuff from when I was a baby or something excluding 10 which really didn’t offer much apart from more telemetry than ever and even more convoluted system settings menus. I’ll let the pre-10 releases that weren’t total garbage slide but any widely considered improvement going forward at least will be shills, bots, and ai articles, calling it now.
I suspect with MS pushing their products to be based on webview2 (teams, new outlook, etc) that the next OS they release will be designed for a more efficient cpu architecture, similar to what Apple is doing. Like vista, it will probably suck until it gains more mainstream support.
I need to disagree on pretty much all points. I switched both my mother and an old friend of mine to linux and neither of them had any major issues. They’re not technical people, but they understood the basics needed for everyday use without problem.
I swear, half the issues people report after trying out linux are entirely related to the nvidia drivers and nothing else.
You’re the monster I deal with the remains of at my job lol
Who doesn’t trust that people can learn new skills? This guy.
You assume people can. Simply moving between browsers is a problem for most people. you overestimate how technical competent most people are.
That sounds more like their issue if they struggle to switch software.
Let’s be honest, most of the time it’s a lack of willingness to learn how to use something or just ignorance. As opposed to anything else.
It’s not difficult to learn, most people just refuse to do so.
They think we’re too stupid to switch app, extremely patronising.
it’s certainly ready to replace mac
What’s Windows?
A retirement system the Kremlin uses.
For media consumption, internet browsing etc, Linux is more than ready to replace Windows. However, problems do arise in exotic hardware combinations, but these days, this is the exception rather than the norm.
don’t worry about it. with the enshittification of win 11, that gap will close faster than copilot will record your activities.
Those upcoming changes are why I’ve been playing with the idea of a complete switch to Linux. While I use Linux regularly (but certainly not exclusively) and feel comfortable making the transition to it from Windows, my wife and kids would struggle with some aspects of Linux. And committing all of us to that OS transition would mean a commitment for me of troubleshooting, assisting, and educating the family.
Thanks OP for this post. I know you’re getting some shit for it, but I and others appreciate your honest findings.
I don’t think OP’s analysis should be taken as offensive or disingenuous by others here. And I don’t understand why they are getting shit. I’ve been using Linux off and on for 20 years. It’s come an insanely long way in that timeframe with its usability for less technical users. But yes, there are still some gaps to fill. And the way to fix them is to listen to honest feedback like OP’s.
For some reason you’re suggesting us to believe that your wife and kids do the maintainance of the windows machines like finding GPU driversbut couldn’t do it for Linux machines.
New windows computers almost definitely have a program that does this for you with a click of a button. You don’t have to hunt for the download button on a shady website to get a gpu driver anymore.
A New Computer with pre installed Linux also has all drivers necessary preinstalled.
Isn’t Nvidia a pain though?
I’ve heard differing experiences lately. It seems dependent on how old you card is and if it’s supported by Nvidia I guess
On GNU/Linux, the drivers and blobs come with the kernel, so every installation has, by the nature of the operating system, all the drivers it could ever need. The only exception here are proprietary drivers, but that’s not because of technical limitations, it is due to the philosophy of our free software movement. You can easily find distros that come pre-installed with proprietary drivers.
No, I’m saying that whenever they would run into any problem with the OS they would need to either figure out how to overcome it, or I works need to help them with it. It could be a more technical issue. It is could be a case of " how do you do this thing in the Linux UI? Because it’s different from Windows."
There is no “Linux UI” per se, the closest thing to it is Bash I guess. I find it important to make people understand that GNU/Linux is not bound to any particular GUI like Windows or MacOS are. With them, their less knowledgeable users equate the GUI to the OS, which is fair because they are so tightly integrated and not changeable. But for GNU/Linux, the visual UX+UI are entirely modular and not part of the operating system itself. As I said, the Bash shell may be interpreted as a kind of UI standard for FOSS Unix and Unix-like systems, but it’s also not necessarily required in that it can be replaced with another shell program.
Of course, not knowing you I cannot tell how experienced you are with GNU/Linux, so you could know all of this already, therefore don’t feel like I’m trying to belittle you or anything, this is meant to be genuinely helpful by giving people that have no prior exposure to GNU/Linux some glances into what makes it special.Edit: scratch that last part, I’ve just now noticed that you are the same person that said they had already transitioned partially
If OP is unwilling to learn basic features of the OS, of course they face criticism. This post is not a good contribution, it is once more a superficial review by someone who has jumped on the hating GNU/Linux bandwagon because they somehow personally identify with M$. But the Apple crowd is worse.
I’m OP, I’m not unwilling. I couldn’t turn this laptop over to anyone else though.
Also, I don’t hate Linux nor do I love windows. I hate windows probably more, for other reasons. The pinnacle OS for me is OSX as distributed on the BlackBerry passport.
I’m even on an Apple phone right now.
It’s not difficult to empathize with non-technical people though, which is why my post is about.
So 2025 is the year of Linux desktop? This time for real.
As a full-time Linux user and evangelist, I agree that it’s not ready for most users. Just too many issues and idiosyncrasies. Mostly bugs and hardware incompatibility things. Also way too easy to break your system.
Windows isn’t good enough to replace the Unix/linux desktops I’ve been running for the past 35 years.
I also currently interact with Linux systems regularly although they don’t have a DE and aren’t for general workstation use.
🚩🚩🚩
A line used by every concern troll.
