The prohibition on public exposure of breasts by women and girls over 10 years old is now gone from the city code as of this week.
I never thought I’d be conflicted on this, because I am absolutely of the opinion that female breasts and nipples shouldn’t be treated as exclusively sexual body parts, especially since men have them too and we aren’t held to that standard.
But being confronted with the idea that 10-17 year old girls can now bare their breasts in public without restraint reminds me that treating female bodies as non-sexual is great as an ethos, but it is not reflective of reality, and that this specifically could be problematic.
But how to solve it? You can’t make it an 18+ only rule, or you’re further entrenching the idea that female breasts are exclusively sexual and adult, but if you let teens and tweens go topless, they will be sexualized / ogled / photographed by adult men, and that’s a bad precedent to set as acceptable. We usually treat photographs of underage female breasts as a form of CSAM, but can we still say that if we’re treating female breasts as non-sexual? This is an interesting new line to draw, given societal attitudes on adolescent nudity.
Regretfully, I believe that the true problem is men. The reason women have to cover their breasts is because they have to protect themselves from men. I’m all for bodily liberation and the de-sexualization of female existence, but we need an overhaul on our society’s attitudes towards women in general if we’re going to get there. Maybe bare breasts help get us there. Maybe girls need to learn the right way how to kick a man in the balls before they go topless.
I feel like the simple solution is that if you can’t have topless kids because of pervs, then you can’t have topless kids and gender isn’t part of it
To answer your question, it could be legal grey area because not all pictures depicting nudity are automatically considered pornographic, if you are speaking in terms of legal precedent regarding obscenity in the US.
To further muddy the issue, photographing other peoples kids is considered creepy by nearly everyone but it isn’t expressly illegal unless certain localities have specific statutes against it. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy in public places, so you have the potential situation where people are doing a presumptively legal activity in a public area where photographing that activity could be illegal depending on… intent?
Further, the courts have ruled that getting naked in public in the act of protesting something is part of protected speech. Presumably that applies to people of all ages and sexes as well but I doubt it has ever been tested.
Comments like this are why I left reddit. This is a completely hinged and totally reasonable thought process that calls in a question, a lot of facets of the issue and ways them against each other appropriately. Maybe something more crazy would spark a bunch more replies but I totally like that Lemmy is a place that just lets people be normal.
Tits are not sex organs.
Why is it not legal everywhere that it is for men? This is ass backwards lol. I just always assumed it was more of a women saying “not gonna do that cause pervs” type thing and how overly sexualized boobs are
Well you’re kinda right. I’ve lived in BC and the Yukon where it’s fully legal for women to go topless and I know quite a few who have, for shorter events like naked bike ride etc. But most of them intelligently choose not to at public beaches and whatnot because of the ick factor.
I know one lady who did choose to go topless on a hot summer day in a fairly major downtown center and was accosted by cops whom she had to argue with (gladly, and loudly) for over an hour to explain to them that she was breaking no laws. They were trying to pressure her to re-robe because they were getting complaints, but again it’s true that she was breaking no laws at all. They couldn’t in the end do anything about it, and rightly so.
It’s a straw man / non issue.
In Germany are public places marked as FKK (Freikörper Kultur = Full Nudity in Public), which are literally normal areas without any special consideration in terms of visibility. Best case: There is a sign notifying the squeamish that there could be Nudity… normal Case: No one gives a fuck.
Heck, the best public baths are the sauna/thermal baths with are mandatory nude, age restriction 16+…
It has no sexual meaning … you go there, everyone is naked after 10 seconds of slight awkwardness, you forget about it and enjoy the freedom of “no cold and wet swimwear” on the body.
It’s great!
I doubt Americans are different in that perspective.
Edit: Perverts won’t have fun there. The people are average and mostly old and the behavior is casual. It’s like seeing your mom or dad naked. The few People who could get off on this have issues.
I doubt Americans are different in that perspective
Lmao
That’s all I came to say
exactly, we’re so regressive here that some parents just never even talk to their children about sex or their bodies because they are too ashamed to bring up the topic. nudity in public would not go over well
But I thought they love “freedom” over everything?
You didn’t experience freedom when you never took a thermal bath and grilled your balls in the sun… :)
“freedom” as in “free to economic growth” but not “free” as in “free to do what you want”
Hey I’m not saying you’re wrong about that lol But America is full of hypocrisies.
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The Article made it sound like hyped up “look at this thing and how unbelievable it is” while it is completely normal.
But I think I am ignorant regarding the issue in the US an I think I became a sex offender at least twice while visiting the US. ._.
Women being topless is legally allowed literally everywhere in Canada.
And if you’re not comfortable with people seeing you topless, just head further north, where there’s no people anymore
I’m guessing toplessness gets rarer as it gets colder, long before you run out of people.
Or as we Brits (of any gender) might say: “I’m freezing me tits off”
I’m in a very far southern area in Canada, and I’m here to report, it’s not something that happens here either.
So heading further north, let’s see, more rare than “I have never witnessed nor heard from anyone who witnessed it”… Uhhh. I feel like this is like dividing by zero.
It just doesn’t happen.
The fact is, it should be legal. It’s sexist if it’s not legal. Whether anyone chooses to exercise the right to do it, is an entirely different matter.
amendment the constitution. the right to bare tiddies
everything is speech including my nuts
In America, here in France is a right nationwide ✊
I assume it’s because France is a sane country.
So this body freedom is ok.
All bodily freedoms, including that pesky bodily autonomy thing that some people seem to struggle to understand, should be freedoms granted by the constitution (or similar document in other countries).
We passed laws that have made things more equal here in Canada. The US should do the same.
I keep thinking about America’s obsession with freedom, and from what I see, y’all aren’t very free.
New York, too! And a few other states, I think.
New York too. Or is it just the city?
Yup legal in NY.
But we do have cabaret laws in NYC that say you can’t dance in an establishment without a license for dancing which is super dum dum.
San Francisco as well
IIRC it’s completely legal to walk around fully nude in San Francisco.
Edit: I was at work so I couldn’t look this up to post it but yeah, there’s a website dedicated to it.
It’s certainly legal to be that one random dude sunbathing in Delores Park during the handful of days that are warm enough. The rest of San Francisco is rocking jeans and a light jacket / hoodie. That is the official Bay Area dress code.
Bring your own towel for the bus, please. I’m sick of sharing.
grrr muc opreson
In some German cities public pools it’s allowed, too. Source in German: https://www.hessenschau.de/panorama/frankfurt-erlaubt-oben-ohne-schwimmen–v4,frankfurt-schwimmbaeder-100.html
We need to switch from our current American view that all nudity is sexual. If you see a someone naked doesn’t automatically make it sexual!
I mean, sure. But also need to switch from our current US American view that sexuality is bad
People need to spend a little time at a nudist resort. They’d learn real quick that naked isn’t sexual.
Idk, I feel like for some people it is and for some it isn’t.
Like tbh I’d be worried about going to a nudist resort because (despite the trope that “only people you don’t want to see go there”) if I saw a woman I was attracted to I’d be worried that it would be…uh…evident, and that seems awkward and idk if it’s like, allowed to become tumescent even if it is an uncontrollable biological response (never stopped anyone from being mad it happened before, so…)
Idk, if I saw a woman walking down the street tits akimbo, I’d definitely be more inclined to think “ayy hell yeah” in my head than not, even if it happened daily, I can’t just stop being attracted to women, ya know?
Not that I think she shouldn’t, it’s her right and I wouldn’t complain about seeing them, but I can’t control my uncontrollable biological responses of “attraction” nor what happens naturally when “attracted,” if you will (though outside of nudist resorts, it’s hidable enough because clothes.)
I’m gay. Personally, I’ve just never had trouble in situations with non-sexual nudity. I’ve been to nude beaches, about ten of my city’s World Naked Bike Ride, and of course locker rooms. Plenty of hot guys around, it’s hard not to notice, but never had the smallest issue with anything being evident. It feels like it’s largely based on the setting.
Idk I feel like that is also highly dependant on your individual body. I know guys who never become engorged (without the help of modern medicine of course), and grown ass men that have never even fell out of that teenage “random boner” phase which we all surely have at least a passing familiarity with, and everywhere in between. I’d say I’m in between, the randos are gone, but they are easily triggered in certain circumstances.
tits akimbo
They have to be pretty big and saggy to do this.
It does sound like a mildly amusing female comedy troupe though.
You could bring a towel and casually hold it in front of the happy area. Maybe people will know what’s going on but they also know you’re trying. We’re all human.
Good to know, is that like, common etiquette in all of them? Not that I’m planning on going anytime soon anyway but I guess it’s good to know just in case!
It’s not even mandatory to be nude, at least the ones I know in Germany. So you could get accustomed to it slowly. As long as you’re not staring, you’re fine.
In Sylt, a German Island, the nude and dog beaches are mixed.
Huh, good to know, I did indeed think those places were mandatory to be nude at like the resort type places. I know they specifically have “clothing optional beaches” (not in my country afaik, but still), and those I figured were optional as they say, but I may hold a misconception about the “nudist resorts” proper.
Glad the dogs can be nude on the beaches though! Lol :D
Boiling it down to a purely biological process is oversimplified. Unless you are getting aroused whenever you see an attractive person, simply removing clothing isn’t/shouldn’t be a variable. You’ve been socially conditioned to think of all nudity as sexual. Spending time in a nudist area is somewhat about decoupling nudity and sex. (yes there are those that go for the sex, and it’s kinda the leading reason.) I think the point of being human is all about control over ones self and environment. Hell humans have spent more time on this earth walking around naked than clothed. Our current views on nudity and sexuality is relatively new due to social, political, religious, and practical reasons. (you don’t want someone nude preparing large amounts of food or people in hospitals being needlessly naked for obvious reasons.) Ultimately I’m saying if you are worried about being in a public nudity area and not being able to separate the other human from their body/attractiveness, it might be something you should explore. So you can be more open to others in general.
I mean, yeah, I see an attractive (especially scantily clad or nude) woman, and I do indeed think “damn hell yeah” every single time. Yes. Been this way my entire life and I don’t see an end in sight. I mean it’s not like I’m gonna knock her over the head and drag her into my hut but will I look? Yeah. Could I get a boner (that would likely go unnoticed unless we were at the aforementioned nudist resort)? Yeah absolutely, could happen. Sure, maybe it’s been social conditioning since I was like 11 but at the same time it still “is,” sometimes people don’t think it be like it is, but it do, even if the reason for it “being” is 30+yr of social conditioning.
I think that the notion that we exist to control our environment is comforting, but hubris. We exist in our environment and absolutely do not have a control of most of it. Like in this example, I can control my reaction in that I don’t become a sex crazed rapebeast every time “titty,” but I cannot control “mmm hell yeah titty.” Frankly, I’m not sure I want to. Hell yeah titty! What is wrong with me having a sexual nature as a human after all? I’m not sure liking boobs counts as a kink really (it certainly isn’t paraphilia) but “don’t kink shame me,” really.
Sure, cavemen may have been naked and if I was raised as a caveman perhaps I’d like titty less. Buuuut it’s 2024, and I’ve been raised in this world, where I do in fact like boobs.
Really it isn’t an issue for me as far as I’m concerned, excepting my hesitancy to walk around naked myself at a nudist resort because I don’t want to possibly have an embarrassing boner. It may be an issue for people who want to walk around tits akimbo and still not have them be seen or who have a problem with me liking seeing them, but they’ve chosen to be naked in public and so a certain amount of “being seen” has to be expected.
True! My first thought is usually drugs without further context.
Are you male or female? In this case, it matters.
You see, males (for the most part) ARE attracted to breasts! It’s hard wired in our brains! Even gay friends have an obsession with boobs! We men LOVE boobs!!
If you want to go topless, I say: FUCK YEAH!!! But I feel like the disconnect comes from some people feeling violated if men stare. I’m sorry, but if there are boobs within eyeshot, I’m gonna be looking at them. I might try to hide my gaze (because I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable), but I’m gonna be checking them out. As frequently as possible. Because…boobs!!
I’m sorry if this is not the kind of response you were looking for, but…BOOBS!!
I disagree that it’s “hardwired in our brains”. It certainly has a strong cultural bias. Also, I kinda look at it like a gynologist: If you’ve seen 20 of them naked, it gets boring and you stop staring, I guess.
I’m a cis heterosexual male. I love all things about a women’s body, but I’m mature enough to not pop a boner just because I see a naked attractive woman. Like is that honestly hard for some healthy adult men?! Like if that woman and I are making sexual advances towards each, game on! Otherwise, what’s the big deal?
You are talking about culture not purely biological. Before clothing men weren’t walking around with erections all day. Same thing goes for many other cultures. The obsession with seeing anything naked is because we treat all nudity equally when it’s not. I see it as a personal control and character issue that is ingrained in western and Abrahamic religions areas.
I’m not saying I would be walking around with a boner. I’m saying I would want to look at naked breasts because I appreciate female bodies (in this case, specifically the chesticle region) no matter the shape. Are you shaming me for that?
Sure, if everyone walked around naked 24/7, it would probably be less of an issue. Do you believe that everyone walking around naked 24/7 is a viable option?
And also, you seriously believe that it is an issue ONLY with Western cultures and Abrahamic religions?! I’m starting to think you have never spoken to someone from China or Japan about their societal norms.
On the other hand, I’m gay and breasts just don’t do anything for me. Now a guy with a decent set of pecs (but not ridiculously oversized), now we’re talking.
What’s your opinion on the Terry Crews style pec muscle jiggle?
It’s a bit much.
I agree. There’s such shame and disgust around the work of art that is the human body that really needs to be worked on.
Some of y’all should be ashamed.
Projection much?
No u!!!
Hooray!
…for Boobies!
Username checks out.
Legal in more states now. https://gotopless.org/topless-laws
did not expect Nevada to ban tatas
See how Indiana is red there? I had friends in college in Indiana back in the 90s who stripped to help pay for their schooling and they had to put round band-aids over their nipples. They could bare their breasts, inside a building, but not their nipples.
You mean in a strip club or in public?
Inside the strip club. No nipples allowed.
Wtf
I can’t explain it either.
Blue laws are hell to work around as a performer. Thankfully NYC is pretty lax.
That said, the silver lining is that nipple pasties are an absolute central part of burlesque now and you can find everything from cheap disposables to custom made works of art
It’s so funny though. Like the nipple suddenly makes it horrible smut but it’s okay with almost the nipple.
Blue laws are a joke. In many states you can’t show underboob
Also, notice it’s only fem presenting nipples
Man nipples = Go for it anywhere at any time. At the DMV? Show off those nipples!
Woman nipples = the worst thing you can possibly see in a strip club.
Blue laws
Are they called that because they relate to blue balling?
To be honest nipple pasties are HELLA sexy. Just makes it even better when they get taken off later on. But who knows, maybe the reason I think so is because of burlesque popularizing them.
Sadly, site doesnt load
Washington surprises me. AFAIK full nudity is legal in Seattle.
Also legal in Ontario, Canada. A woman was arrested for walking around topless in hot weather. She was finned by police but topless men in the area were not. Ontario courts eventually rulled this was discriminatory but the provincial government did not appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada so the ruling only applies in Ontario.
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Yeah despite there being a law against discrimination, the cops are obviously going to use their subjective view of things like lewd behaviour to charge topless women where they wouldn’t men.
That’s literally the law Ontario courts rulled cannot apply to topless women as it is discrimination.
On July 19, 1991, a sweltering and humid day, Gwen Jacob, a University of Guelph student, was arrested after walking down a street in Guelph, Ontario while topless after removing her shirt when the temperature was 33 °C (91 °F) and was charged with indecency under Section 173(1)(a) of the Criminal Code
Yeah. Shit, isn’t it?
ACAB
Oklahoma is very much not Ontario
Take Oklahoma off your list because in Tulsa they will still arrest any woman who does this. Apparently they refuse to follow that law that was passed.
I know because the city made big fucking stink about it when Tulsa women started to go topless when it was found to be legal. So they passed and ordinance making it illegal within city limits at public spaces so practically everywhere.
Have there been any lawsuits about that? Surely someone has done it so they could then sue the city right?
I bet they would charge them with “Creating a public disturbance.”
That’s what the cop who told me in Indiana, “Sure, you can wash your car at a public car wash while having a pistol in view; it’s not illegal. But I’ll arrest you and put you in jail for ‘creating a public disturbance’ in less than a heartbeat”. And, no, he wasn’t joking.
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Yeah, this is effectively illegal in every conservative state.
de facto vs de jure
Yeah, this is effectively illegal in every conservative state.
It’s because y’all qaeda hates women.
It’s also legal in British Columbia, Canada and it has been since 2000
Happy about this. A scant few hours ago I had an over the fence conversation with my neighbor and neither of us were wearing shirts. It’s the ideal way to live.
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