I imagine you can understand that if you cannot explain how being trans relates to a cis person people will struggle with understanding each other. You say physicality and cultural spot, which are both not foreign to cis people. I spiritually don’t feel any gender, but I can’t imagine that you would be able to understand what a cis man feels spiritually in the same way I wouldn’t understand a trans woman. You have your own internal understanding of being a man and your own spiritual feelings of what being a man is, but how can you say what being a man is? How can anybody without introducing their own cultural ideas into it?
Women do not feel alien to cis men. Maybe some, but not all. Aside from the physicality of my body, I feel more comfortable and feel more of a likeness around women than men often times, but I’m not trans. Your experience as a trans person couldn’t be the experience of a cis person, so how can you claim to know that you are a man?
The self harm, suicidal ideation and hatred of your bodily functions must be influenced by not only your internal feelings but also the external society. If altering one’s physical appearance is so successful for gender dysphoria, then the physical nature and perception of oneself within society must override internal spiritual incongruences.
Curious how you feel about suicidal people. If somebody is so unhappy with their existence that they want to kill themselves, no surgery nor adjustments to society will quell this deep internal dissatisfaction with themself, would you recommend they kill themselves? No wrong answer here. I presume you might feel that there are underlying issues causing their resentment towards existence. If you feel like killing yourself because you don’t want to get pregnant, that should just be an accepted state of mind because you are trans.
I really should apologize here because my line of questioning must sound aggressive and dismissive, especially through text. I’m just intensely curious and eager to understand each other. I don’t believe this is possible, however, because we have a fundamental disagreement on gender. I truly appreciate the back and forth and hope I haven’t hurt you in any way. I support people doing whatever they feel is best for them, but I just fear that we are not addressing deeper issues and the fear of invalidating one’s experience (rightfully so) hinders our ability to solve these deeper issues as a whole society. Trans people cannot be entirely correct and knowledgeable about transness and its inner workings and cis people cannot be entirely wrong.
The whole “women do not feel alien to cis men” is part of my point about internal gender preference. Though I do think some cis men do experience it through a “I do not understand women” mindset or treat them as they are fundamentally and irreconcilably different than men. It’s difficult to untangle that from the male supremacist cultural understanding of women in practice but I think the sentiment also exists in part neutrally as part of the experience of cis men with internal gender preference.
And in regards to your assertion about it being externally motivated, while it took me awhile to untangle my feelings from internalized misogyny I really don’t think the two are at all related. I long ago came to the conclusions that yes culture tends to create narratives of female inferiority and that I was not immune to those narratives and questioned whether I was simply running away from that. I managed to neutralize my veiws on the matter in an attempt to self soothe and I lived in that space for a few years. It doesn’t touch dysphoria or euphoria but it does made it easier to spot it’s source, but the strength of aversion can only be passified by feeding it something else. In my case I have to continuously feed it a lot of logic. And I do mean a LOT of logic. This can be survivalist logic (if you let this stop you from participating in public you will eventually become miserable which will weaken the ties you have to other things ) the logic of my decisions (personal quick mantra - I would take a bullet to this person I am in love with I can make smaller daily sacrifices) or cultural logic (cis men exist who don’t fit this paradigm either) or ideological logic (you believe that society is shallow and your plight regarding your physicality echos prifoundly harmful beauty standards. You have the strength to manage and see the benefits inherent to being ugly, you can apply that as needed to your body)… But the thing is with that logic pool is it has to keep being applied as a coping mechanism. I can literally never stop. The source is never based in logic. It’s like trying to bail out a boat with a hole in the bottom. I can stay afloat but it takes continuous applied effort. I have embraced a stoic philosophy approach to try and weaken my reaction to external hits… But it the size of the hole in the bottom of the boat is a constant. Being reminded of my physicality by outside sources is just a wave that forces more water through the hole in the bottom. It’s a reaction below and not goverened by the conscious mind.
As to suicide. Touchy subject. My dad died in early 2019 and the way he managed it we will never find his body. It is a loss that continues to fuck my family up and the only reason I made it to adulthood at all was knowing that my family would never get over my loss. I have a friend right now who is at constant risk but after thinking about it pretty intensely I realize that there is no bulletproof logic to keep someone alive if their misery is intense enough. My lifeline relied on surgical fixes. I have never needed an abortion (thankfully. I do not want to think about what sort of panic I would be in if that was a reality) and it took me a long time to convince people medically that I was a candidate for sterilization… But that is in part gender related care for trans people. In a reasonably pro-choice country my chances of survival were not bad. In a post hysterectomy situation I closed off that loophole for good but holy hell did I need to fight for it. No one would give me one in my 20’s so I lived in constant fear for a decade even with the best contraceptives money could buy. I literally had to refuse to leave a gynecologist’s office peacefully and get emergency backup from my GP on the phone that I was hurting myself before they gave their signoff and I was 32 and still facing “But you’re still young you’ll probably regret it!” bullshit.
But it cannot be denied that the reason for that pushback is because a low percentage of cis women who have hysterectomies report a profound and constant sense of loss. Essentially they seem to me they are experiencing cis gender dysphoria. But the thing about that is the vast majority of cis women don’t experience that symptom. Only about 2-3% of the post surgical population surveyed expressed that particular symptom. It strikes me that might be a window into the number of cis people who actually experience true internalized gender preference…which would put it in the statistical ranges of other recognized populations of structural neurodivergence like Autism (1%) or ADHD. (3% - 5%). It is my belief that being transgender is a further subset of the population who experiences internalized gender preferences but with an additional complication of that internalized compass pointing other than what their physicality supports. However because cis people with internalized gender preferences supply no burden on the systems that exist and oftentimes the people themselves are unaware until something goes wrong with their sexual conception of themselves we have no recognized population to study.
Anti-suicidal lifelines can break if you don’t do what’s nessisary to keep yourself alive or if you are not provided with lifelines. A lot of trans people lose a lot of their lifelines when they come out as trans. If you find yourself out of a job with no close relationships what keeps you alive becomes precarious. Suicidal episodes can occur as periods of intense logic overriding hysteria. They can come over you very quickly at a heightened strength and it’s not everyone’s fault that they fall prey to it. Not everyone who commits suicide is anywhere near their right mind at the time. That said there are people for whom life isn’t ever going to get better. They have done all their thinking and the benefits of death outweigh the trouble of maintaining life. Their deaths almost always leave people behind who are traumatized by their passage by different degrees so while our cultural aversion to suicide is founded you can’t fix the problem by simply adding more social pressure through stigma to stay alive. If someone really wants to die they will do it. If someone has circumstances for a hard out then there’s not much you can do to stop them. You can imprison them and leave them no opportunities to easily kill themselves quickly and efficiently but you can’t really make them want to live long term. If you can’t fix the underlying problem you just leave a timebomb. Ultimately suicide is something we as a society should try and prevent. Individually the cause collateral damage, but you have to be active at addressing a bunch of personal issues.
On a completely separate note.
It is also probably worth correcting a misconception. I do not fully rationalize or identify myself as a man. Part of my coping mechanisms involve partial denial of fulfilling that role in it’s entirety and compromising utilizing a non-binary function. I recognize and conceptualize myself as existing lodged in a halfway state which allows me to manage my situation. My desire for physical maleness is pretty much on par with any binary trans man but I try logic my way into seeing myself as a complete being as I am now as a matter of the compromises I routinely make. I am a part of the trans masculine non-binary community if you want to be specific about it.
Your experience trying to get a hysterectomy is so frustrating. It’s a common story. People should be allowed to sterilize themselves if they want to, and I won’t get into this controversial opinion, but I think there are cases where we should forcibly sterilize people (NOT eugenics). An example being a man who impregnates a child.
I appreciate your opinion on suicide and I’m truly sorry for the loss of your father.
Like sexuality, I think if we’re going to keep gender around, and obviously it’s not going away any time soon, we need to make a much more fluid spectrum so people can more comfortably fit into society. Call everybody non-binary. Women can have penises for example, or men can have vaginas. Obviously social stigmas as well. You’re probably rolling your eyes thinking I missed or disregarded everything you’ve said, but I think this social shift would enable some people to be more comfortable being themselves and not have to diagnose themselves with dysphoria, and a small percentage of the rest of the population would have some other form of dysphoria in which they simply do not want to be in their body irrespective of gender.
I am not rolling my eyes about a shift to a more non-binary society. I think absolute destigmatization and democratization of gender roles, stereotypes and culture at large would be a boon to a lot of different groups. Heck they/them pronouns being the norm until you know someone’s preference actually benefits non-binary and non-gender conforming people and put to bed more toxic femininity and toxic masculinity. Allowing humans to just be whatever appeals to them personally would allow us to better appreciate the individual natures of people. It also will reduce the pressures that do exist for some people which will stop some people from feeling the need to aggressively align with the sexual binary for the sake of survival or who have to keep their identity quietly under wraps at present. It would be ultimately a good and healthier place to gravitate towards. Ultimately treating gender more flippantly does allow people to feel less like it’s a chain around their neck and more of a toy that can be engaged with for the sheer fun of it. Because gender euphoria is just that - joy. Trans narratives often center around pain and dispair but it’s one half of the equation. The other half is just experiencing at it’s most extreme a very wild almost drug-like illogical emotional high. People like to play and a lot of people deny themselves play because of these cultural narratives of shame and tradition. It’s in part why the gay community has ballroom culture and drag. A lot of that doesn’t from a place of transness, they are just doing it because once you’re considered a failure of the standard it’s easier to transgress other rules. If they are gunna hate you anyway for the thing that you can’t change why care what they think?
Just as political lesbianism was a thing in the 80’s we are seeing I think a rise in political non-binary identities. If you think a more non-binary society is a good thing than I agree!
But conversely I think gender affirming care that deals with physical transition is probably going to remain a nessesity even in that kind of senario and we’ll probably see more instances of gender “kit bashing” as the walls around sexual stigmas are further challenged.
The society you mention already is having it’s trial run. Where I live there’s a much wider swath of the community that participates in the genderqueer social conventions of society. It is of course seeing pushback from Conservative groups as they are trialing things like gender neutral bathrooms in K-12 schools but as far as the conversations around LGBTQIA+ issues we’ve always been about a decade ahead of the States.
Ah, I was being glib. It’s from the Warhammer modelling community. Basically where you take multiple models types and meld them into unique configurations. Some of us in the more geeky enby community use it to mean ideal physical transition goals that do not align to a strict binary sex phenotype.
I’ve played my share of MTG but dripped out of it pre covid. I could only ultimately afford one money sink at a time. Warhammer is very good at creating an addiction to paint. I would warn you off it if you wish to safeguard your funds. There’s ways to go about it responsibility supposedly. Necromunda or Killteam are toted as such options… Probably just a gateway drug though.
Dollar for dollar though Gaslands is where it’s at. Way more fun at the table and you play with whatever Hot Wheels and Matchbox you want to mod into Mad Max nonsense. Game takes about the same time to play as a Warhammer game but is way more entertaining.
I imagine you can understand that if you cannot explain how being trans relates to a cis person people will struggle with understanding each other. You say physicality and cultural spot, which are both not foreign to cis people. I spiritually don’t feel any gender, but I can’t imagine that you would be able to understand what a cis man feels spiritually in the same way I wouldn’t understand a trans woman. You have your own internal understanding of being a man and your own spiritual feelings of what being a man is, but how can you say what being a man is? How can anybody without introducing their own cultural ideas into it?
Women do not feel alien to cis men. Maybe some, but not all. Aside from the physicality of my body, I feel more comfortable and feel more of a likeness around women than men often times, but I’m not trans. Your experience as a trans person couldn’t be the experience of a cis person, so how can you claim to know that you are a man?
The self harm, suicidal ideation and hatred of your bodily functions must be influenced by not only your internal feelings but also the external society. If altering one’s physical appearance is so successful for gender dysphoria, then the physical nature and perception of oneself within society must override internal spiritual incongruences.
Curious how you feel about suicidal people. If somebody is so unhappy with their existence that they want to kill themselves, no surgery nor adjustments to society will quell this deep internal dissatisfaction with themself, would you recommend they kill themselves? No wrong answer here. I presume you might feel that there are underlying issues causing their resentment towards existence. If you feel like killing yourself because you don’t want to get pregnant, that should just be an accepted state of mind because you are trans.
I really should apologize here because my line of questioning must sound aggressive and dismissive, especially through text. I’m just intensely curious and eager to understand each other. I don’t believe this is possible, however, because we have a fundamental disagreement on gender. I truly appreciate the back and forth and hope I haven’t hurt you in any way. I support people doing whatever they feel is best for them, but I just fear that we are not addressing deeper issues and the fear of invalidating one’s experience (rightfully so) hinders our ability to solve these deeper issues as a whole society. Trans people cannot be entirely correct and knowledgeable about transness and its inner workings and cis people cannot be entirely wrong.
The whole “women do not feel alien to cis men” is part of my point about internal gender preference. Though I do think some cis men do experience it through a “I do not understand women” mindset or treat them as they are fundamentally and irreconcilably different than men. It’s difficult to untangle that from the male supremacist cultural understanding of women in practice but I think the sentiment also exists in part neutrally as part of the experience of cis men with internal gender preference.
And in regards to your assertion about it being externally motivated, while it took me awhile to untangle my feelings from internalized misogyny I really don’t think the two are at all related. I long ago came to the conclusions that yes culture tends to create narratives of female inferiority and that I was not immune to those narratives and questioned whether I was simply running away from that. I managed to neutralize my veiws on the matter in an attempt to self soothe and I lived in that space for a few years. It doesn’t touch dysphoria or euphoria but it does made it easier to spot it’s source, but the strength of aversion can only be passified by feeding it something else. In my case I have to continuously feed it a lot of logic. And I do mean a LOT of logic. This can be survivalist logic (if you let this stop you from participating in public you will eventually become miserable which will weaken the ties you have to other things ) the logic of my decisions (personal quick mantra - I would take a bullet to this person I am in love with I can make smaller daily sacrifices) or cultural logic (cis men exist who don’t fit this paradigm either) or ideological logic (you believe that society is shallow and your plight regarding your physicality echos prifoundly harmful beauty standards. You have the strength to manage and see the benefits inherent to being ugly, you can apply that as needed to your body)… But the thing is with that logic pool is it has to keep being applied as a coping mechanism. I can literally never stop. The source is never based in logic. It’s like trying to bail out a boat with a hole in the bottom. I can stay afloat but it takes continuous applied effort. I have embraced a stoic philosophy approach to try and weaken my reaction to external hits… But it the size of the hole in the bottom of the boat is a constant. Being reminded of my physicality by outside sources is just a wave that forces more water through the hole in the bottom. It’s a reaction below and not goverened by the conscious mind.
As to suicide. Touchy subject. My dad died in early 2019 and the way he managed it we will never find his body. It is a loss that continues to fuck my family up and the only reason I made it to adulthood at all was knowing that my family would never get over my loss. I have a friend right now who is at constant risk but after thinking about it pretty intensely I realize that there is no bulletproof logic to keep someone alive if their misery is intense enough. My lifeline relied on surgical fixes. I have never needed an abortion (thankfully. I do not want to think about what sort of panic I would be in if that was a reality) and it took me a long time to convince people medically that I was a candidate for sterilization… But that is in part gender related care for trans people. In a reasonably pro-choice country my chances of survival were not bad. In a post hysterectomy situation I closed off that loophole for good but holy hell did I need to fight for it. No one would give me one in my 20’s so I lived in constant fear for a decade even with the best contraceptives money could buy. I literally had to refuse to leave a gynecologist’s office peacefully and get emergency backup from my GP on the phone that I was hurting myself before they gave their signoff and I was 32 and still facing “But you’re still young you’ll probably regret it!” bullshit.
But it cannot be denied that the reason for that pushback is because a low percentage of cis women who have hysterectomies report a profound and constant sense of loss. Essentially they seem to me they are experiencing cis gender dysphoria. But the thing about that is the vast majority of cis women don’t experience that symptom. Only about 2-3% of the post surgical population surveyed expressed that particular symptom. It strikes me that might be a window into the number of cis people who actually experience true internalized gender preference…which would put it in the statistical ranges of other recognized populations of structural neurodivergence like Autism (1%) or ADHD. (3% - 5%). It is my belief that being transgender is a further subset of the population who experiences internalized gender preferences but with an additional complication of that internalized compass pointing other than what their physicality supports. However because cis people with internalized gender preferences supply no burden on the systems that exist and oftentimes the people themselves are unaware until something goes wrong with their sexual conception of themselves we have no recognized population to study.
Anti-suicidal lifelines can break if you don’t do what’s nessisary to keep yourself alive or if you are not provided with lifelines. A lot of trans people lose a lot of their lifelines when they come out as trans. If you find yourself out of a job with no close relationships what keeps you alive becomes precarious. Suicidal episodes can occur as periods of intense logic overriding hysteria. They can come over you very quickly at a heightened strength and it’s not everyone’s fault that they fall prey to it. Not everyone who commits suicide is anywhere near their right mind at the time. That said there are people for whom life isn’t ever going to get better. They have done all their thinking and the benefits of death outweigh the trouble of maintaining life. Their deaths almost always leave people behind who are traumatized by their passage by different degrees so while our cultural aversion to suicide is founded you can’t fix the problem by simply adding more social pressure through stigma to stay alive. If someone really wants to die they will do it. If someone has circumstances for a hard out then there’s not much you can do to stop them. You can imprison them and leave them no opportunities to easily kill themselves quickly and efficiently but you can’t really make them want to live long term. If you can’t fix the underlying problem you just leave a timebomb. Ultimately suicide is something we as a society should try and prevent. Individually the cause collateral damage, but you have to be active at addressing a bunch of personal issues.
On a completely separate note.
It is also probably worth correcting a misconception. I do not fully rationalize or identify myself as a man. Part of my coping mechanisms involve partial denial of fulfilling that role in it’s entirety and compromising utilizing a non-binary function. I recognize and conceptualize myself as existing lodged in a halfway state which allows me to manage my situation. My desire for physical maleness is pretty much on par with any binary trans man but I try logic my way into seeing myself as a complete being as I am now as a matter of the compromises I routinely make. I am a part of the trans masculine non-binary community if you want to be specific about it.
Your experience trying to get a hysterectomy is so frustrating. It’s a common story. People should be allowed to sterilize themselves if they want to, and I won’t get into this controversial opinion, but I think there are cases where we should forcibly sterilize people (NOT eugenics). An example being a man who impregnates a child.
I appreciate your opinion on suicide and I’m truly sorry for the loss of your father.
Like sexuality, I think if we’re going to keep gender around, and obviously it’s not going away any time soon, we need to make a much more fluid spectrum so people can more comfortably fit into society. Call everybody non-binary. Women can have penises for example, or men can have vaginas. Obviously social stigmas as well. You’re probably rolling your eyes thinking I missed or disregarded everything you’ve said, but I think this social shift would enable some people to be more comfortable being themselves and not have to diagnose themselves with dysphoria, and a small percentage of the rest of the population would have some other form of dysphoria in which they simply do not want to be in their body irrespective of gender.
I am not rolling my eyes about a shift to a more non-binary society. I think absolute destigmatization and democratization of gender roles, stereotypes and culture at large would be a boon to a lot of different groups. Heck they/them pronouns being the norm until you know someone’s preference actually benefits non-binary and non-gender conforming people and put to bed more toxic femininity and toxic masculinity. Allowing humans to just be whatever appeals to them personally would allow us to better appreciate the individual natures of people. It also will reduce the pressures that do exist for some people which will stop some people from feeling the need to aggressively align with the sexual binary for the sake of survival or who have to keep their identity quietly under wraps at present. It would be ultimately a good and healthier place to gravitate towards. Ultimately treating gender more flippantly does allow people to feel less like it’s a chain around their neck and more of a toy that can be engaged with for the sheer fun of it. Because gender euphoria is just that - joy. Trans narratives often center around pain and dispair but it’s one half of the equation. The other half is just experiencing at it’s most extreme a very wild almost drug-like illogical emotional high. People like to play and a lot of people deny themselves play because of these cultural narratives of shame and tradition. It’s in part why the gay community has ballroom culture and drag. A lot of that doesn’t from a place of transness, they are just doing it because once you’re considered a failure of the standard it’s easier to transgress other rules. If they are gunna hate you anyway for the thing that you can’t change why care what they think?
Just as political lesbianism was a thing in the 80’s we are seeing I think a rise in political non-binary identities. If you think a more non-binary society is a good thing than I agree!
But conversely I think gender affirming care that deals with physical transition is probably going to remain a nessesity even in that kind of senario and we’ll probably see more instances of gender “kit bashing” as the walls around sexual stigmas are further challenged.
The society you mention already is having it’s trial run. Where I live there’s a much wider swath of the community that participates in the genderqueer social conventions of society. It is of course seeing pushback from Conservative groups as they are trialing things like gender neutral bathrooms in K-12 schools but as far as the conversations around LGBTQIA+ issues we’ve always been about a decade ahead of the States.
What’s kit bashing?
Ah, I was being glib. It’s from the Warhammer modelling community. Basically where you take multiple models types and meld them into unique configurations. Some of us in the more geeky enby community use it to mean ideal physical transition goals that do not align to a strict binary sex phenotype.
Ah got it. I’ve never played warhammer but looks cool. I dabble in Pokemon and mtg
I’ve played my share of MTG but dripped out of it pre covid. I could only ultimately afford one money sink at a time. Warhammer is very good at creating an addiction to paint. I would warn you off it if you wish to safeguard your funds. There’s ways to go about it responsibility supposedly. Necromunda or Killteam are toted as such options… Probably just a gateway drug though.
Dollar for dollar though Gaslands is where it’s at. Way more fun at the table and you play with whatever Hot Wheels and Matchbox you want to mod into Mad Max nonsense. Game takes about the same time to play as a Warhammer game but is way more entertaining.
Thanks! I have a 3D printer. Can I just make buildings and characters? What’s the money suck? Paint?