Saw this today, and … well, I’m not going to be so forgiving to people suggesting to vote Third Party rather than vote for Biden. If Trump wants me to do something, and you want me to do that same something, that tells me you’re aligned with Trump.

  • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    I just want to make you aware that your argument is that Biden is basically not responsible for his position on Israel. Like I really want you to actually notice what that does rhetorically, because you are effectively ceding the position that Biden is bad, but Trump would be worse (maybe).

    So is Biden the President or is he not? Like, the fucking point is that Biden can do better right now and is choosing not to. Is he the President and capable of such a thing or is he not? With whom does the buck stop?

    You need to start understanding that the consequence of the “Any blue will do argument” is the recognition that Biden is a weak, unfit leader that doesn’t have accountability, and that this rhetorical structure is what is losing Biden this election. Making excuses for Biden on this policy position weakens him as a candidate, and further ensures a Trump victory.

    • kescusay@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      That’s a blatant misreading. He is fully responsible for his position, but due to the circumstances of this situation, his position is necessarily nuanced. It has to be, to avoid destabilizing the entire Middle East.

      Imagine he just declares Israel no longer an ally, and tells them they’re on their own. How long before Iran attacks? How long before other Muslim-majority countries are dragged into it? How long before it becomes a broader conflict, with Israel fighting basically everyone?

      How long before we end up dragged into it anyway?

      Biden is trying to pressure Netanyahu with what leverage he has, and he is trying to prevent it from become a large regional conflict. I’m sure he wishes BiBi wasn’t the one in charge there - most Israeli citizens certainly seem to want him gone, too - but wish in one hand, shit in the other, and see which one fills up faster.

      With Biden, we have someone in the White House who actually gives a shit whether Palestinians get to live. That’s a hell of a lot better than anything Trump has to offer.

      • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        With Biden, we have someone in the White House who actually gives a shit whether Palestinians get to live.

        Biden is, and always has been, a full throat-ed Zionist. He’s maybe the furthest right Democrat on this issue from his cohort/ demographic of senators. He’s hard right in this way. Further right than Trump. You are projecting nuance and your own desire to belief that Biden is good on Israel onto Biden beliefs. But by Biden’s own words and his stated beliefs, he is doing pretty much exactly what we would expect him to do in support of Zionism. If you map current actions onto his previously stated beliefs, nothing is out of order. The only change has bee some lip-service sound byte level saber rattling. There is no need to project deep nuance onto the situation if you just look at Biden’s words and policy positions and map them to what he does. He lines up as a squarely Neo-conservative Zionist in rhetoric (preter Israels advancement of the genocide of the Palestinian people post October) and has lined up squarely as a Neo-conservative Zionist in action. He makes decisions and acts like the person he said he is.

            • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              I’m doing what again? I asked about Trump for the first time.

              When you vote for candidates you compare and contrast their positions on the same topic.

              I read your long post about Biden is a Zionist so how does that compare to Trump’s ideas on Palestine?

              • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                Its irrelevant because right now, Trump isn’t president. Biden is.

                You apologetics are costing us this election. Stop.

                • pivot_root@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  If you mean “us” as a third-party voter, you will never win the election as long as the system is still first past the post.

                  If you mean “us” as a Republican, then all I can say is that you’re the problem for not taking the trash out and letting him run again in 2024.

                  • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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                    7 months ago

                    By ‘us’ I mean any one who doesn’t want Trump to be the next president.

                    Your rhetoric is costing us this election.

            • pivot_root@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              His point is that Trump’s position is to absolutely flatten Palestine, and that would be far worse than Biden continuing his half-assed pussyfooting.

              When the only viable options for president are Trump or Biden, why would anybody who actually cares about Palestinian lives not do what they could to prevent Trump from turning them into glass and ash?

              • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                His point is that Trump’s position is to absolutely flatten Palestine, and that would be far worse than Biden continuing his half-assed pussyfooting.

                No fucking shit. Every idiot talking head is parroting the identical argument. And its not working, which is my point.

                Trump isn’t president, Biden is. So Trump being better or worse is irrelevant and the argument is worthless. And that’s what they and (perhaps?) you don’t seem to get. The rhetorical approach of blaming Trump/ claiming Trump is worse, is having the opposite effect that I assume you think it should have. The argument they and you are making isn’t gaining Biden support, it is weakening support for Biden, and the insistence on this failed rhetorical approach is currently costing us the general.

                Fucking stop. Stop apologizing for Biden. Stop defending it. Stop excusing it. Start demanding Biden do better or we’re fucked and you’ve guaranteed us Trump.