I don’t disagree, but I think that’s still the cart before the horse.
People in general need to stop tearing down people who are closest to them if any complex issue is to ever get solved imo. After the US election all you see is blame getting thrown around, and most of it (that I’ve seen) is blaming people closest in values for not approaching issues in the exact way the blamer wants them to.
Progressives seem like they will always struggle to make anything complex and meaningful happen when they tear each other down, meanwhile bigotry and regressiveness is pretty singular and easy for their opposition to mobilize.
I don’t think I’m tearing anybody down after the election.
I’m gonna go a different direction and say that people on the left have to learn to disagree productively. Rather than the old dem party “shut up get in line the adults are talking” progressives should be interested in grassroots mass campaigning. What is needed is a mass movement, and that won’t happen if people can’t make basic democratic decisions in a field of uncertainty and shifting priorities.
But if I see my fellow progressives going down a stupid path, like the one the meme seems to advocate for, I’m gonna say something. If my comrades want to arm themselves, great! If they want to organize into a worker militia, that’s 1000x better. But believing we can make change happen with violence divorced from politics is as naive as believing we can make change happen with politics divorced from violence. That’s not what the state is.
I am the last person tearing down anyone. I agree with your point and the urgency of it, but (theoretically) disagreement can be productive and drive discussion, rather than making people more campist and paranoid. Avoiding conflict will not unite the left, but those conflicts will never get resolved or worked through, and they end up staying forever. We need to work past it together rather than acting like we are all bitter enemies judging each other just because we have different priorities. That’s just normal regular politics
Well said, and I didn’t intend to say you are tearing down anyone.
The only relevancy to you is your statement about organizing I think is very important, but the blocker imo is that complex issues require working together in ambiguity and I’m seeing less evidence than ever that progressives who very much agree on what a problem is, and most of the solution to that problem, they then start squabbling rather than working together.
Yeah well I wish I had a clear answer to the problem you’re correctly identifying. Probably the best way to get around at least the first large chunk of issues, is focusing a lot on education. Quite frankly many liberal progressives, the good ones who would value more highly human emancipation and progress than clinging death-like to private property at the expense of all else, function largely based on enlightenment moralism such as a “categorical imperative”, as well as are hardwired for dualism rather than dialectical materialism (for example.) IMO these out of date paradigms are woefully insufficient for the present task.
But even among like-minded individuals there are big problems to move beyond. I’m in a group of political activists that go to great lengths to vet its members. It takes a minimum of 4 months of study and discussion to be even considered to join, and activists had often been studying for years before and continue to study once accepted. The group was formed by some organizers who have been working together for decades before splitting from their old group. We are a very democratically run org, that works to influence mass movements and call for the creation of a workers party by and for the workers, in order to establish a worker state to transition to socialism away from capital and private property.
Long story short we have vicious disagreements despite our collective work, our shared education and frequent comradely discussions. The scope of what we disagree about is narrower, but the disagreements are almost irreconcilable. Personally I think some people could be more introspective, others better communicators, others less dogmatic. Various differences manifest as two distinct factions in conflict, with the rest of the membership left to tip-toe around it, or set up in one camp or the other. And this is a very good group! None of these critiques venture into the sort of interpersonal cattyness, or downright abusive behavior from leaders of other groups. We don’t have those particular problems, but yet problems emerge nonetheless.
But moving into a more “repressive” period under trump might have the effect of unifying many peoples differences and burying different hatchets. Temporarily. Its a mistake to think that individual ideas or ideology is solely responsible for the difficulties of the left. We exist in a milieu that is hostile and confused, at least some of the hostility and confusion amongst us is part of that influence. Having an external “enemy” to struggle against has a way of unifying differences and replacing important priorities with urgent ones dictated by history. Also things can move very quickly once society reaches a tipping point. Objects in our predictable future may be close than they appear. I hope we can get our act together, and will keep working to try and make that real
I know that was a lot to write so I want to acknowledge I read it all, appreciate the effort.
The existence and interactions of your group of activists is fascinating, I admit I lean towards radical inclusivity so it sounds a bit wild to me, but I also get and respect how difficult it is to maintain group cultures and where exclusivity is necessary and productive.
I fully agree that there will likely be some unity under Trump out of necessity and that it will unfortunately probably be temporary (can’t help but think about Biden getting the most votes ever being strong evidence towards that)
Not much follow up except to say you seem like a good person, hope whatever influence you seek is supported.
I appreciate your remarks, and I am also a believer in radical inclusion, but not everyone is ready for political struggle. Hell, I’m pretty sure I’m not cut out for it either; except for my dedication to it. But hopefully more people can become ready and produce some new social form we never could have predicted fully, and it grows into something by and for the many. That’s why I try to educate whenever possible, and get involved in whatever work I’m cut out for. I guess this will be the test, the next 4 - however many years
I don’t disagree, but I think that’s still the cart before the horse.
People in general need to stop tearing down people who are closest to them if any complex issue is to ever get solved imo. After the US election all you see is blame getting thrown around, and most of it (that I’ve seen) is blaming people closest in values for not approaching issues in the exact way the blamer wants them to.
Progressives seem like they will always struggle to make anything complex and meaningful happen when they tear each other down, meanwhile bigotry and regressiveness is pretty singular and easy for their opposition to mobilize.
I don’t think I’m tearing anybody down after the election.
I’m gonna go a different direction and say that people on the left have to learn to disagree productively. Rather than the old dem party “shut up get in line the adults are talking” progressives should be interested in grassroots mass campaigning. What is needed is a mass movement, and that won’t happen if people can’t make basic democratic decisions in a field of uncertainty and shifting priorities.
But if I see my fellow progressives going down a stupid path, like the one the meme seems to advocate for, I’m gonna say something. If my comrades want to arm themselves, great! If they want to organize into a worker militia, that’s 1000x better. But believing we can make change happen with violence divorced from politics is as naive as believing we can make change happen with politics divorced from violence. That’s not what the state is.
I am the last person tearing down anyone. I agree with your point and the urgency of it, but (theoretically) disagreement can be productive and drive discussion, rather than making people more campist and paranoid. Avoiding conflict will not unite the left, but those conflicts will never get resolved or worked through, and they end up staying forever. We need to work past it together rather than acting like we are all bitter enemies judging each other just because we have different priorities. That’s just normal regular politics
Well said, and I didn’t intend to say you are tearing down anyone.
The only relevancy to you is your statement about organizing I think is very important, but the blocker imo is that complex issues require working together in ambiguity and I’m seeing less evidence than ever that progressives who very much agree on what a problem is, and most of the solution to that problem, they then start squabbling rather than working together.
Yeah well I wish I had a clear answer to the problem you’re correctly identifying. Probably the best way to get around at least the first large chunk of issues, is focusing a lot on education. Quite frankly many liberal progressives, the good ones who would value more highly human emancipation and progress than clinging death-like to private property at the expense of all else, function largely based on enlightenment moralism such as a “categorical imperative”, as well as are hardwired for dualism rather than dialectical materialism (for example.) IMO these out of date paradigms are woefully insufficient for the present task.
But even among like-minded individuals there are big problems to move beyond. I’m in a group of political activists that go to great lengths to vet its members. It takes a minimum of 4 months of study and discussion to be even considered to join, and activists had often been studying for years before and continue to study once accepted. The group was formed by some organizers who have been working together for decades before splitting from their old group. We are a very democratically run org, that works to influence mass movements and call for the creation of a workers party by and for the workers, in order to establish a worker state to transition to socialism away from capital and private property.
Long story short we have vicious disagreements despite our collective work, our shared education and frequent comradely discussions. The scope of what we disagree about is narrower, but the disagreements are almost irreconcilable. Personally I think some people could be more introspective, others better communicators, others less dogmatic. Various differences manifest as two distinct factions in conflict, with the rest of the membership left to tip-toe around it, or set up in one camp or the other. And this is a very good group! None of these critiques venture into the sort of interpersonal cattyness, or downright abusive behavior from leaders of other groups. We don’t have those particular problems, but yet problems emerge nonetheless.
But moving into a more “repressive” period under trump might have the effect of unifying many peoples differences and burying different hatchets. Temporarily. Its a mistake to think that individual ideas or ideology is solely responsible for the difficulties of the left. We exist in a milieu that is hostile and confused, at least some of the hostility and confusion amongst us is part of that influence. Having an external “enemy” to struggle against has a way of unifying differences and replacing important priorities with urgent ones dictated by history. Also things can move very quickly once society reaches a tipping point. Objects in our predictable future may be close than they appear. I hope we can get our act together, and will keep working to try and make that real
I know that was a lot to write so I want to acknowledge I read it all, appreciate the effort.
The existence and interactions of your group of activists is fascinating, I admit I lean towards radical inclusivity so it sounds a bit wild to me, but I also get and respect how difficult it is to maintain group cultures and where exclusivity is necessary and productive.
I fully agree that there will likely be some unity under Trump out of necessity and that it will unfortunately probably be temporary (can’t help but think about Biden getting the most votes ever being strong evidence towards that)
Not much follow up except to say you seem like a good person, hope whatever influence you seek is supported.
I appreciate your remarks, and I am also a believer in radical inclusion, but not everyone is ready for political struggle. Hell, I’m pretty sure I’m not cut out for it either; except for my dedication to it. But hopefully more people can become ready and produce some new social form we never could have predicted fully, and it grows into something by and for the many. That’s why I try to educate whenever possible, and get involved in whatever work I’m cut out for. I guess this will be the test, the next 4 - however many years