- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
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Not to worry! Li’l Kim’s Bestest Buddy and Honorary Number One Chief Saluter will be ready to help NK help Russia destroy Ukraine and NATO.
All you MAGA service “losers” and “suckers” got quite the cognitive dissonance jam rockin’ huh.
That military man looked really important. Even a king would salute.
To be fair, the orange rapist found some good speed on that trip
To be fair, the orange convicted felon and rapist found some good speed on that trip
It’s the hat that did it.
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50 US Marines, of which he is their Commander in Chief.
North Korea has been an American rival since 1950. Imagine if any other President had done this.
But you don’t even have to, just look at the response to Obama bowing to the emperor of Japan, an ally.
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If I were President, and I were meeting with an enemy face to face, and they saluted me, I’d salute them back.
I have not served in any military and am not aware of the official meaning of a salute.
But I have had enemies and if I were meeting with one of my enemies and they saluted me, I would salute them.
This is just based on my gut feel of the gesture’s meaning from watching movies. My gut feel is it’s a combination of:
- This handshake indicates we’re both listening intently and ready to talk
- I see you. We are the same despite our ranks, because we’ve both put ourselves here, and because we’re both equally susceptible to bullets.
I could be wrong, and I’m asking for correction if I am, but based on that I’d salute an enemy soldier if he was standing there ready to meet with me.
Thing is though, with a politician it’s different. I don’t know if Trump’s ever been shot at. Probably not. So the “hello, spiritual brother” thing that can apply to any other soldier even enemy is less there with a politician.
I don’t know. Just saying it seems natural to me to salute an enemy. Like “this sucks, maybe we can end it today” feeling to it for me. Framing the war as a problem they’re facing together.
Probably best not to be running on autopilot around North Fucking Koreans though.
Eh, in Trump’s case it was best to be running in autopilot… His tweets were him “thinking”
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They’ll doublethink their way out of it somehow.
Biden broke all ties with North Korea after Trump. Reverting to the old demand to denuclearize before for any negotiations and imposing more sanctions.
As we have learned from Ukraine. no sane country should ever give up their nukes because they become a prime target for invasion. If Ukraine still had nukes Russia would never have invaded.
Biden has also imposed sanctions on NK which were undone by Trump
Now I’m not a an NK fan but I’m not sure why people think pushing NK away would make them more friendly. Unlike the past where American sanctions spelled doom and America could bend any country to their will, China and Russia are now picking up the countries America pushes away.
China and Russia are now picking up the countries America pushes away.
Pretty sure North Korea has been allied with China and Russia for way longer than the US has been “pushing them away”.
Well yes because America had been pushing North Korea away.
Trump tried to lay contact with NK. He might not have had pure motives for it. He usually doesn’t. But the action itself is not the problem.
Biden hitting NK with the “new number who dis” right after becoming president certainly doesn’t make them trust us more. And thus they have been pushed further into the arms of Russia.
The classic American imperialists refuse to accept that by sanctioning a country into oblivion they will now just join China and Russia’s side. They have alternative options.
Most Americans don’t even know why North Korea is so hostile. We bombed them into oblivion during the Korean war.
Well yes because America had been pushing North Korea away.
The classic American imperialists refuse to accept that by sanctioning a country into oblivion they will now just join China and Russia’s side.
Most Americans don’t even know why North Korea is so hostile. We bombed them into oblivion during the Korean war.
What the fuck is this revisionist history?
North Korea invaded South Korea in 1950, after the South refused Northern rule. The UN stepped in (90% American forces) pushing the North Koreans nearly to China’s borders, at which point China entered the war, and resulting in the 38th parallel armistice border we have today.
North Korea wasn’t pushed into China’s welcoming arms due to American anti-nuclear proliferation sanctions of the last twenty years, and “being bombed into oblivion” is often the result of picking on countries with bigger allies than you, just ask Germany and Japan.
China has propped up the Kim dictatorship dynasty for the last 70 years, feeding their starving masses while the Kims focus the country’s resources on military spending, including nuclear development to substantiate their annual saber rattling. Allowing China to maintain a buffer state, that’s kept the West at bay since 1951.
NK & SK were making historical progress towards reunification until Kim and Trump met. Look at the pics from the summit and the timeline of inter Korean relations and it’s clear as day. He’s the reason relations went downhill.
I hope everyone that keeps down voting me for talking about WW3 are right…
But man, it really is starting to look like WW3
People forgot how long it took the other world wars to really get rolling. (Presumably because they weren’t alive when it happened.)
I’m also of the opinion that unless something happens to de-escalate this conflict it will inevitably draw Europe, the US, and China in.
Everybody is already in and picked the side…
We just waiting for the other shoe to drop… Is US Marines landing in Crimea or other wild scenario where everyone goes: " well damn and that’s how it turned into ww3"
We are also hoping it doesn’t turn into WWIII. It could for sure, but there is the possibility that things can calm down in a few years.
I hope it won’t. Afterall I have CK3 campaign to finish.
The Somme, part two: Rasputitsa
They also forget about the 4+1 treaty.
If Israel expands to other countries, it would draw Russia in on their side, and the US on Israel’s
Which now also brings NK in. And we’ve got a multi front multi country war with two distinct fronts.
People might not call it WW3, but there’s a world war coming straight ahead, and as good of a movie as it was, I dont want to recreate the Titanic
It didn’t take long at all for WW1 to get rolling.
June 28, 1914 Archduke Francis Ferdinand is assassinated.
July 28, 1914 Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia, beginning World War I
WW1 has an insane pace compared to WW2. Battles where a single day has casualty numbers that compare to an entire month past D-day.
To me it looks like N Korea wanting to acquire some direct combat experience to continue to develop their skills and capabilities.
But yes, personally I was not expecting this.
Skill acquired: cannon fodder
They didn’t start calling WWII what it is until 1944, but I think we can all agree it didn’t start in 1944.
Just like later historians placed the start of WWII on multiple different events depending on which country you’re in, the start of World War III will be long before we start calling it that.
I’m in the camp that the start of WW3 will be the Russian invasion of Ukraine if things continue to escalate the way they’re going, because that’s when you really started seeing lines being drawn between the axis and allies.
Russia, China, Iran, and NK are the most recognizable names that have aligned themselves with the axis so far.
The lines are already drawn and future events will dictate whether or not we’re currently living in WW3 today.Also, the winners will interprete who gets to be the axis and who gets to be the allies in history books…
Pretty sure Iran adopted “Axis of Resistance” already. Least they already know what side they are on.
Really getting sick of people deciding to just like…starting shit instead of focusing on constructive competitions like science or space races to other planets. Why do people feel the need to kill the shit out of each other and subjugate their population whilst climate change is bearing down on us? :p
I am also sick to the core about this aspect of humanity. I feel that we as a species are just about developed enough to understand how a better world would look like, and how people should act, what’s “the right thing to do” - and very much not developed enough to overcome our egoism and narcissism to make it happen, so we do the wrong thing despite knowing better far too often.
For most of history you would be better off if you could kill the next village over. You want to be friends with the people in your village, but if you kill the next one you can expand your farm/hunting/gathering grounds and then leave it to your kids - while otherwise you won’t have enough food for all the kids and your DNA is in danger of not getting passed on.
In our modern world we mostly have plenty of food (and when we don’t lack of land is not the issue), but that isn’t what our DNA is evolved to “think”
For most of history you would be better off if you could kill the next village over.
That is an incredibly stupid take. For most of history, the planet was so vast that people had plenty of room to hunt / farm / whatever. And no, killing other humans is not in our DNA, the only people who feel like that are those with brain damage / development defects.
Most of the planet was not accessable. It was there but your local population grew until the land couldn’t support more. There wasn’t much opportunity to move as the surronding villages had the same problem.
of course when a famon came you got a few generations of peace here and there
And some would argue that WW1 was WW2 and WW2 WAS WW3. The 7 years war/French and Indian (not French vs Indian) war are commonly referred to as the real first world war. And then the Nepoleonic wars are similarly thought of by some to have been a world war of sorts
WWI was called the great war, and the war to end all wars until WWII broke out. I sometimes call WWII just the great war part 2 - the treaties that “ended” WWI were clearly setup (on hindsight!) to make the war break out again in the future when Germany got sick of those treaties.
The point is names are added after the fact and often don’t make a lot of sense if you know details.
“This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years!”
Ferdinand Foch, 1921
He was right for the wrong reasons. He believed the treaty was too lenient, when in retrospect it seems pretty clear that the punitive nature of the treaty was a significant factor in Hitler rising to power and then WW2 starting.
For sure, I know allll about that stuff (former history teacher)
Not really, proxy wars have been fought with multiple nations before.
… practically everyone was in Syria… Russia, Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Armenia, Qatar, The USA, ISIS, Al-queda, and Syrian forces.
Not exactly a proxy war when Russian troops are personally in Ukraine. That’s just a war.
The Korean War had over a million NATO troops and also tens of thousands of Soviet troops and, somehow, remained a proxy war. A particularly bloody one, but there was still no actual open full-scale warfare between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. Even China and America remained officially at peace, despite making up the majority of the forces on each side
The Korean War was led by the UN. NATO wasn’t involved.
Apologies, I was using “NATO troops” as a shorthand for the large number of countries involved rather than the specific command structure. You are right to bring that up
Russia is actively in Syria from the end of 2015 as an official belligerent, it’s not something new for Russia to fight directly while others use only proxies.
But I can see your point; still - officially - this is only a
three daysmilitary operation. When that stance will finally change in the official channels, it will mean they can’t hold the mask anymore.It’s not a proxy war between Russia and the US. It’s a proxy war between China and the US.
Russia and Ukraine are the pawns
It’s a proxy war because the two major powers are fighting in an area neither of them own.
Iraq was a proxy war, even though US troops were there.
How was Iraq a proxy war?
Because Russia was funding one side, ask George Bush senior.
I’d say not since Russia is trying to directly annex those portions of Ukraine. How is that a proxy?
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To me, it does not seem wise to just let these two continue along this path, but I am certain there are numerous internet experts out there who can explain to me why we should not intervene.
How would you propose the intervention happen? Sit Kim down and say “bad boy, stop it”?
What can “the west” really do to prevent or stop troops from NK being sent to the Ukraine front?
Russia isn’t going to stop them from crossing their border.
What can “the west” really do to prevent or stop troops from NK being sent to the Ukraine front?
Drop leaflets on them inviting them to surrender and upgrade their lives to South Korean national.
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Considering that North Korea is literally the worse country in the world to live it, this is super likely to be an attractive offer.
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Nobody’s average soldier age is 45. Has nothing to do NK being rock bottom in country rankings. And the younger you are in NK, the more you are probably screwed.
To be honest that’s likely the most effective. Though not very effective compared to threats against family.
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Hmmm. While that would technically stop Russia from needing the troops in Ukraine, I don’t think that just giving a dictator sections of land because he claimed them is a good path.
“Just give up when I take your shit” is a shit take.
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“They could have not gotten invaded if they just gave up their rights to protect themselves!”
You mean Russia and NK?
Or you meant the two countries in the middle of illegal invasions: Russia and Israel?
Fuck Israel, but that being said what the hell does Israel have to do with anything here?
Israel and Hezbollah have been exchanging rocket fire, and Israel is talking about a ground invasion.
Hezbollah has a defense treaty with Iran, Iraq, Russia, and another ME country I’m blanking on.
If Israel invaded Lebanon in an attack on Hezbollah, that draws in Russia, and likely NK.
Israel and Russia are the two countries invading others that I believe are the primary drivers towards WW3. NK is just a long for the ride until/unless they launch an attack on SK.
But I think before that happens, we’ll solidly be in WW3. I think NK is onboard now, with the promise to be backed against SK later. No one is attack NK unless NK starts some shit, they don’t need a defense treaty.
Israel would solo Russia ggez.
But man, it really is starting to look like WW3
It looks more like Crimean War II to me.
The truth is, we don’t fucking know. No expert would tell you that Russia is ready to invade Ukraine, and here we go.
Be careful here. Experts would tell you that Russia was going to invade Ukraine. However as you say Russia wasn’t ready for it.
I wasn’t even an expert but I knew they would do that just by distribution of military. Did not expect Civ 5 to be accurate, tho
I’m not an expert either and I could have predicted the invasion based on:
- huge buildup of troops in preparation for invasion
- 8 years prior they had invaded after saying they wouldn’t
Pretty asymmetric that isn’t it. On one side you have a nation that is rapidly running out of, well basically everything, and on the other side you’ve got an alliance of nation states which contain among many other things the largest most powerful military on the planet.
Finally the nation that is running out of resources is now getting military support from quite possibly the worst place they could get it from.
It’s going to be one of those ridiculous situations that only happens in Civilization, where you’re bombing cavemen with nukes because your adversary has failed to advance through the tech tree fast enough.
Unfortunately China is not running out of everything and they are looking like they might back Russia here. Iran is also backing Russia and not to be underestimated.
I’m wondering what Kim gets from this though?
I honestly think he might legitimately believe that a couple platoons of NK soldiers will clear this whole mess right up and then the world will have to take them seriously.
The North Korean leadership is not exactly well known for their excellent grasp of reality.
My thought is maybe either food or arms or research for arms production/nukes from the Russians.
Edit Addendum: the article says as much actually lol. This is what I get for just trying to get an idea of NK actions from the title.
It never leads anywhere though. North Korea has always been fobbed off with decades-old technology,it’s not like they will know.
So everyone continues to ignore them because they continue not to be a threat. It’s not in Russia’s interest to give them anything really advanced, assuming they have anything left to give them. The best thing Russia could give them would be infrastructure engineers but they’re probably not interested in their own populace enough to consider that a worthy exchange.
a yes, one country against the entire world, truly the ww3 of all times, we downvote your take is stupid
So it’s OK for Ukraine to invite friends along to help too?
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the US announced it would lift the ban on American contractors going to Ukraine at the same time as this. Russia reaps what it sows. Ukraine gets highly payed and skilled contractors, in return, Russia gets malnourished and untrained Korean conscripts.
The North Koreans are perfect for the Russian tactic of forcing the Ukrainians to deplete their ammo by throwing meat at them.
I dont think it’s quite the same thing though. US contractors won’t be fighting, I think they’ll just be maintaining and repairing equipment.
Arguably, a much more critical job for a capital-intensive army.
Yes, it’s actually huge. Especially for maintaining a weapon as complicated as an Abrams tank. If it can be repaired close to the front lines then that has the potential to cut days off the turnaround time compared to towing it over to Poland.
I will never understand why the American military think it’s a good idea to send them tanks that are so complicated. Especially when they’re going up against cold war era relics.
Because it’s what we have to send. It’s not like we have a lot of extra Sherman tanks we can send anymore.
Do we have non-complicated tanks?
Long term investment. Same as in Israel. Trying to save democracies from annihilation.
The best tactic Ukraine could have at this point would just be to encourage the North Koreans to defect. Can’t imagine it’ll be particularly difficult, “hey switch sides and we won’t kill you, and here’s a free house with electricity, water and indoor plumbing”.
It would be like trying to convince people to leave the 15th century.
… “and don’t worry about your family back home in North Korea who will be compressed into tinned meal”.
The defection rate will be low I suspect. It’s an automatic TFK (total family kill) to defect and I doubt they’ll send anyone who don’t have family at home in Glorious Motherland!
Russia gets malnourished and untrained Korean conscripts.
Just offer them all plane tickets to South Korea. Problem solved.
I wonder if many will even fight? If I were from North Korea, I’d consider surrender to be a godsend. They would do terrible things to the family members, though… I guess that’s the true cruelty of regimes like this. They punish the people you love.
Zerg swarm VS marines
According to Russian propaganda Ukraine has been doing just that the entire time, but if it actually happened that would be yet another red line to cross.
Time to translate those surrender instruction leaflets to Korean. Maybe go ahead and plan to build a large camp for malnourished people.
Maybe that’s the tactic, force Ukraine to divert food and resources to feeding thousands of Korean deserters.
Ukrain is a country of 40 million people, with millions already internally displaced from the war. A few thousand extra refugees wouldnt even be noticed.
Maybe go ahead and plan to build a large camp for malnourished people.
Or just invite the South Korean government to send agents to Ukraine to invite them all to South Korea.
Can the average north Korean read though?
These guys will have a better time in Ukrainian captivity than 99% of the population at home…
Maybe even food and medication against tap worms? I’m in!
Curious how many will defect once outside North Korea.
According to hexbear you would have to have some deranged lib mind to believe any would want to.
Server blocking hexbear is the only way to stay sane on Lemmy.
We defederated them a while ago over here. Along with some right wing instances too. The extremists from either side of the political spectrum really spoil the experience.
They sure do love authoritarianism more than they like leftism.
Look @ the tankie!
/s
Maybe on account of the communities I subscribe to, but I’ve personally not come across right wing extremism on Lemmy. The tankies, though … so prevalent. Anyways, by server blocking hexbear it’s reduced by 90%.
NKers are simultaneously brainwashed morons who follow their leader with fanatical delusion and utterly naive children who can be lured to defection by a few pieces of candy and a charming smile.
The hexbears are too stupid to realize that all Koreans yearn for the unlimited freedom of their Southern neighbors and yet too wicked to believe the unvarnished truths of such media luminaries as Yeomni Park. They should all be sent to North Korea to eat grass and toil in the mines and get beaten to a pulp by Kim’s totalitarian police, then repatriated so that they can apologize for their ignorant beliefs.
Those children are completely delusional. I saw a thread about why the entire country is unlit at night which was a parody of itself. I wonder what their demographics are, if not 100% bots.
Surprisingly a lot of them on the Lemmy communities are also trans.
I’m not sure they’re aware how LGBT people are treated in those countries. Either that or just willful ignorance I guess
I guess my deranged mind was right. https://www.newsweek.com/north-korean-troops-deserting-ukraine-frontline-hours-after-arrival-report-1969726
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About 18% of North Korean defectors regret it.
The number one reason is wanting to see family and friends who are still trapped in North Korea.
About 18% of North Korean defectors regret it.
Around 20% of defectors have considered returning to North Korea. But that has less to do with the appeal of the North than the poor treatment of expats in the South.
The South Korean immigration and labor laws make finding work south of the border incredibly difficult. North Korean expats are confined to menial service sector and grueling industrial work while being largely cut out of South Korean social life due to heavy stigmas against them. Its an incredibly hard life and not remotely like the glamorous existence of social elites that Americans claim drive the periodic defections.
They need access to a better place. I suppose they just get financially stuck in S Korea? Or do the move on to other countries too, more willing to give them a chance?
North Korean expats are functionally stateless, so it is very difficult to leave South Korea even when they do have money.
The largest portion of the Korean diaspora live in China and Russia.
Why don’t we have a law for North Korea like the Cuban Adjustment Act that allows anyone who makes it out of the country to quickly become a permanent resident, without regard for how they got out of their country. The situation seems fairly similar, where encouraging more defectors makes the target country look bad, and it can deprive them of workers.
Is it difficult because airlines and whatnot won’t carry them, or because the receiving country won’t let them immigrate due to being “stateless”?
Are they stateless in a way someone coming from Bolivia to the US isn’t, because NK’s outside of some globally-recognized state system? I’ve never considered this before.
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If so few people want to leave, why are so many resources directed into preventing people from leaving? I can’t think of any other country that works so hard to keep their citizens from escaping. Usually the largest barrier to leaving a country is the policies of the country you’re entering.
The fact they’re called defectors says it all. Anywhere else they’d be called emigrants.
That last statement is meaningless given the crazy levels of security they have on keeping people in. If they took away all the restrictions on leaving then the numbers would go through the roof.
I’m sure you’ll be able to provide me with a sound study confirming this.
Very few, as North Korea hand picks everyone who gets to leave by essentially keeping their entire family hostage, and any “traitor family” will find them sentenced to life in prison/labour camp - including any children born in those camps.
And they are places you wouldn’t wish for anyone to end up in, especially your loved ones.
You haven’t met my family.
I’m putting good money down that they either have mass surrenders, or they’re just too malnourished to fight.
Possibly both.
Oh, oh! Or they refuse to come back from Russia, and that pisses off NK .
My money is on NK never sending anyone and this all being political theater. Please. Please please please.
That makes the most sense. NK doesn’t stand to gain much, but they haven’t got much to lose
I suspect NK will kill their families if they refuse to come back, but I’d be completely unsurprised if some fake their deaths and try to disappear.
Then it’d just be NK sending a bunch of soldiers who get to emigrate to Ukraine.
Not a single one of those support troops has any combat experience.
So good luck, guys.
North Korea has had surprisingly close ties with various African states going back to the Cold War and NK mercenaries have served in Syria, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Zanzibar, and South Africa in the relatively recent past.
NKers also have an active role in state-sanctioned smuggling and piracy. I think you’d be surprised how much combat experience they’ve accrued.
And they’ll still be the most experienced combat troops Putin can field. At least they get lots of practice marching up and down the square.
A free trip for defection for North Koreans!
We’re getting a lot closer to a bigger global conflict as NK troops and American Military contractors begin to enter the fray. Anyone else feel like were inching closer to World War than we’ve been since the last one ended?
We’ve been inching closer and closer ever since 2014. Is not an excuse to abandon Ukraine though. Russia won’t stop cause we give them some land.
Appeasement didn’t stop Hitler in the 30s and 40s. It won’t stop Putin now. It never works.
There’s a literal world of space between appeasing Putin and putting foreign soldiers on the battlefield. It’s not an either or.
This isn’t going to do anything. First of all, North Korea is probably not going to send battle ready soldiers to a foreign country. There’s really no reason for it. They might send ditch diggers for trenches.
Second of all, this isn’t going to move the needle on the battlefield. Russia already has more troops than Ukraine. They need more and better arms and ammunition, plus better support, training, airplanes, missiles, drones, commanders, etc. Basically Russia needs a completely different military.
I don’t think what the soldiers end up doing makes it less international of a conflict. The point was there’s going to be sizesble amounts of foreign boots on the groun on both sides. That necessarily increases the international scope of the conflict beyond funding a proxy war.
WW3 started two years ago
Funny thing is the eventual survivor won’t be brought back to NK after having seen the lavish lifes the russians live…
Or the lavish living conditions of a Ukraine POW cell.
Every picture of Putin and Kim together just looks like an adult tricking a kid.
Does north korea have actually good military power? I’ve seen their parades here and there, but does anyone know if they have updated equipment, trained military personnel, good intelligence, etc?
They have massive amount of soldiers and are good and making artillery and missiles. It is a big black box however since they haven’t been engaged in a conflict recently so all their troops lack experience.
Their economy is practically built for conflict so it shouldn’t be taken lightly.
Yeah, I don’t think numbers is everything, lacking experience or leadership can tip the balance against you in a blink
Yeah, I have a feeling that they will have very low morale because of lack of motivating factors. Desertion might also become a massive problem since this is one of the few ways to get out of the DPRK.
Few will desert as their families back home will pay the price for that.
True, but we’ve already seen from Russia what sheer numbers can do, even under-equipped and untrained.
It is a big black box however since they haven’t been engaged in a conflict recently so all their troops lack experience.
They’ve been deployed to Syria since at least 2019 and assisted Hezbollah in its tunnel networks going back decades.
Military is the only thing they have. It might not be the most modern, but they have more artilery shells than any other country. Other stockpiles are huge AF as well. Almost 4% of their population are in active military service and 2% more are reservists. In terms of head count, they have almost as many active personel as Russia while having a fraction of population. Plenty of disposable meat!
It’s all smoke and mirrors, the majority of their stockpiles would be bordering on defunct. Modern equipment they have is far and few between, their training is subpar.
Plenty of disposable meat is certainly correct though!
You may be right. We just saw how Russia performed in the war in Ukraine despite the prior years of flexing lol. It’s not impossible to believe that the North Korean military is the same.
Agreed that they have a pretty big military in terms of raw numbers. I’m not going to discuss quality because the biggest question mark here is force projection.
How are they planning on sending over any significant manpower and supplies across 2800km?
They don’t even have a navy capable of circumnavigating the korean peninsula, much less make the trip to Ukraine or the wrong side of Russia.
They have 2 transport aircraft, the bigger of the 2 has a max passenger capacity of 44 pax. Neither of those have the range to get near Ukraine when flying fully fueled, nevermind if it were fully loaded.
How are they planning on sending over any significant manpower and supplies across 2800km?
Rail? They border Russia and there’s a railroad over the border
I didn’t know this, damn, that’s moving a lot of troops across a length of ~8.000 km in rail
Kim Jong Un has a pretty cool train also to use the rail
There is rail and I’m pretty sure Russia still has plenty of cargo/transport planes that would be capable.
Lmao
News in 30 days: Digestive Parasites are up 70,000% in Eastern Ukraine.
They can meet up with the Cameroonian and Iraqi olympic teams for lunch.
