Halal eaters and teetotalers don’t try to preach as and convert as often, perhaps?
(I support vegans and I dont mock them, for the record.)
Halal eaters do try to convert you, but to their religion, not their eating habits.
They are also made fun of for that.
People genuinely don’t like to be told what they are doing is wrong.
Why do people call it preaching?
It’s baffling that “Hey maybe hamburgers aren’t worth kilometers of cows chained with their face in a feed trough. Arranged this way so that the only activity they can engage in is to gorge themselves on low quality feed frequently filled with bits of other cows (backfeeding). Maybe they like have feelings and deserve better than this followed by a dehydrated wait in a death line in some artificially lit temple to screams and blood and horror?”
Is talked about in the same language as “Invisible sky person is deeply concerned about your masturbating habits and you are going to suffer for it!”
Why do people call it preaching?
I was expecting something like “some just mention it and move on”. Instead…
It’s baffling that “Hey maybe hamburgers aren’t worth kilometers of cows chained with their face in a feed trough. Arranged this way so that the only activity they can engage in is to gorge themselves on low quality feed frequently filled with bits of other cows (backfeeding). Maybe they like have feelings and deserve better than this followed by a dehydrated wait in a death line in some artificially lit temple to screams and blood and horror?”
lol
Why do people call it preaching?
Because despite it being logical to a point, usually the ones who wish to talk about can’t actually explain the rationale for some of the more extremely ends of the philosophy.
I’m completely against industrial meat farming, but for instance game meat from deer that were killed for deer management?
Obviously a vegan will take the position that “eating meat is wrong, you’re killing just for pleasure” usually. Which obviously isn’t true, as there’s no “just for pleasure”, becsuse we’re not talking about trophy hunting, but deer management, which is crucial and without which a lot of animals (and humans) would end up sick, suffering and dying as the ecosystem would overpopulate with deer, leading to a cascade of bad consequences, destroying the environment and the animals in it.
I support vegan products and consider myself a flexitarian, but I do also consume the occasional meat product. Preferably when it’s cruelty free game meat.
Sheep are also another thing. Unless we plan to systematically eradicate the species, then we must tend to some sheep at least, which will mean shearing them, as that’s required for their health. So then we end up with wool. Should that wool not be used? Would it be cruel to use that wool?
That of course again doesn’t mean I’m not fervently against the horrible practices of the large sheep industry. It’s just a question of “can’t you see the eventual problems that taking a position so extreme would yield?”
And questioning these things can upset people, as it’d require flexing the ideology a bit, and that’s something a lot of fervent vegans seem to have issues with. Which is apparent through say, using words like “carnist” to describe anyone who isn’t 100% vegan. Almost in the same way dogmatic religions call anyone disagreeing “a heretic”.
In the same way that monotheistic Abrahamic religions are, most of the “fighting” rhetoric of vegans is very much dogmatic.
@Dasus @naevaTheRat Why do you care about this stuff? Why does your energy flow towards arguing specifics with vegans? Go engage with meat eaters that don’t care whether or not their food was factory farmed instead.
You’ve invented a vegan in your head to be smarter than. My vegan stance on culls is found here: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/11017095
Context of super necessary (apparently) kangaroo culls.
Species don’t suffer, only individuals do. This defense of sheep implies we need to keep breeding pugs, or that if I were to make supersheep who lived ever minute of the day screaming in agony it would be bad to stop breeding them. An absurd stance.
In the interim selling wool creates perverse incentives and if it’s a humanitarian effort (so to speak) we should use it for ends which don’t profit us.
Your objections are standard and tedious, your examples of extremism in the ideology are actually examples of moderate stances.
I’ve never met a vegan that finds it morally objectional to scavange meat, assuming you aren’t creating perverse incentives. Our objections are to suffering, you should probably stop tilting at strawmen.
You’re a mod and didn’t like the reply so you deleted it.
And you pretend you don’t know what I mean when I say some vegans get upset and have issues with replying to these arguments, lol.
You’re welcome to engage in good faith. I have infinite patience for anyone genuinely interested in discussion. It is against the rules of this community to post antivegan rhetoric.
Your initial comment was borderline butI decided to engage in good faith. Then you didn’t engage with anything I said and said a few random gotchas. Other mods are welcome to intervene if they felt I removed your comment in error.
If you would like to rephrase your reply and write a better one you are welcome to do so.
There’s no gotchas, and it is in good faith.
This post is about how vegans engage with non-vegans.
I noted that often many vegans who are arguing on online forums (this is something I also specified in both comments, because I acknowledge and respect the fact that small online communities don’t necessarily represent everyone, or even most people) are often very dogmatic. This can be seen from them getting very upset when they can’t answer certain rhetoric.
Case in point; you deleting a reply you found hard to answer and then pretending I’m arguing in bad faith.
You clearly say that you think vegans don’t have an issue with “scavanged” meat. (“Scavenged”, btw.) This implies that you think vegans would agree that hunting and eating game meat is acceptable and even necessary. Do you think that? (Note, I’m not assuming you do. I’m asking, in good faith.)
The second question is about sheep, since you clearly say that stopping their breeding is the answer. Stopping breeding will lead to the extinction of a species, this is a rather clear consequence. Again, I’m asking this in good faith, exactly because it’s a hard question to answer. Asking the hard questions is often when the dogmatic attitudes are revealed.
But it is in the interest veganism to try to satisfactorily answer these questions to develop as an ideology. If it can’t do that, then it has to change. If it can’t answer, but won’t change either, then it is dogmatic.
If you can do the following:
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comment on the content of my post on culling
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talk about hunting and perverse incentives
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edit your reply in the context of sheep species perpetuation to address what I had to say about super sheep/pugs, how wool is used
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edit your reply to differentiate hunting versus scavenging
I will engage with you. Otherwise I will be recommending you get banned.
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You can only comment here under the guise of good faith for so long. You’re trying to bait a certain response so that you can “prove” a point and put words in other people’s mouths.
I’m vegan with a somewhat differing view on culls, having worked for the EPA and with national parks. I agree that a better solution than culling would be ideal, and that no life wants to be killed or population managed. However, we cull because of our past failings. We wiped out natural predators in many areas that kept a balance, and now, if left unchecked, deer will eat themselves into starvation, and devastate their ecosystem. It would be death on a massive scale if unmanaged, and would even affect humans. I think it’s a far smaller crime to kill a few deer and manage populations at safe levels, than to allow the mass starvation of entire ecosystems because of our past destruction of that balance.
Better solutions have been proposed. Ideally, where we can, we reintroduce native predators and protect their populations until they’re stable. Is that different from killing for population control? We’re introducing animals for the explicit purpose of hunting and killing deer in order to keep a balance. If that’s wrong, then should we kill all predators? Of course not, but I digress. Those aren’t arguments I think you’d make, and I’m not suggesting you’d agree whatsoever, but those are the perspectives we think about. Many many smart people have tackled this issue, and we have not found a better solution than culling. Sometimes, we’ve done some of what you suggested, and attempted to reduce fertility rates, though I see the same moral issue there as well. No sentient creature wants to be neutered or drugged to prevent reproduction. However, it’s better than hunting in certain circumstances, and something has to be done. This isn’t a problem that can be ignored to reduce environmental impacts in other areas. Overpopulation will happen, and it is devastating. I wish there was a simple solution, but we made mistakes when we destroyed the native ecosystem, and now it falls to us to keep it from totally collapsing.
But why not humans? and why make a sport of it and celebrate it, why eat them?
Like if species with a tendency to breed to ecosystem collapse should be killed, aren’t we top of the list?
Without getting all Agent Smith about it, yes, humans are an ecological disaster. I’m not trying to throw charged what-ifs back and forth. We solve the problems we can. Can you clarify what you’re saying? I agree that no animal should be killed by humans, but I also recognize that we must work with the solutions we have. Are you suggesting that we stop cullings and allow overpopulation to happen?
I strongly agree that hunting should not be a sport. I also believe that if we’re going to kill an animal, we should at least use the corpse to feed back into the ecosystem, and I don’t begrudge those that eat the things they hunt, if necessary. Many people subsist off hunting to survive, and while I disagree with the concept of hunting another animal for food, I won’t suggest that they starve, especially when they’re filling a vital ecosystem role. If we don’t need the food though, we should not be hunting animals for food. I don’t know if my opinion is well founded enough to defend the position that if an animal is killed, tragically necessarily, for culling, it should not be eaten. I believe that to be true, but I can’t defend that position with anything but my personal feelings and beliefs. On some level, I understand the argument that if an animal must be killed, then it’s wasteful to not use the meat. Regardless of either argument, I strongly disagree with trophy hunting, and find any hunting for sport abhorrent.
I hope you can see the nuanced nature of my position. I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate or be contrarian. I have a well-formed belief from my experiences, and I am trying to argue my position, and don’t think you have to agree with me, nor do I expect you to. I do not see a large scale alternative to culling at the moment. I think those types of alternatives are being pursued by some in the industry, but the scale is small. I also do not believe it’s an option to allow populations to grow uncontrollably. I believe allowing that to happen would be as morally reprehensible as hunting for sport, as it’s neglecting a duty we have to sustain an ecosystem that we damaged. I am open and interested in any and all alternatives to culling, but I’ve heard none that haven’t been tried or that haven’t been able to succeed at scale.
I went to sleep, I may write something more sensible when I have more patience but I suspect the difference is mostly speciesm. I think we ought not to discriminate in ways we treat species and standards we have about appropriate interventions. I agree that in the short terms there may not be good options but like suppose there are 5 spots on a liferaft and 10 people, that doesn’t really make leaving 5 people to drown OK and you defs shouldn’t outsource it to random yahoos that enjoy killing people.
Given we can’t like distribute condoms and the pill to like kangaroos or deer or whatever there may be no good answers in the short term, but killing should be the absolute last resort. Like we should be closing farms for more land, managing forests for better outcomes, reducing fertility if we can and so on long before we kill. If we do kill we need to make sure it is done with a sole focus on harm reduction, which the way culls are done now is defs not true and we ought to be happy to apply the same reasoning to human beings (basically that we have tried everything else we can and because we can’t reason violence is all that’s left).
My stance can be found
Did I say “yours specifically” or was I talking about loads of other people who may or may not include you? Was I talking about all vegans, or the ones who’s rhetoric is most on display in debates?
It’s disingenuous to pretend that dogmatic vegans aren’t a dime a dozen.
This defense of sheep implies we need to keep breeding pugs, or that if I were to make supersheep who lived ever minute of the day screaming in agony it would be bad to stop breeding them.
So you are actually for getting rid of the entire species?
I’ve never met a vegan that finds it morally objectional to scavange meat, assuming you aren’t creating perverse incentives. Our objections are to suffering, you should probably stop tilting at strawmen.
Ah, so you’re for hunting, because without it people, animals and nature would be suffering and dying more.
How many vegans do you think wouldn’t explicitly agree with “I think hunting (in the context of deer management) is a good and necessary practice, and it’s perfectly fine to enjoy the meat of the deer”?
Because I’ve not met a single one, and am pretty sure even you won’t. I’m pretty sure no-one would think vegans are fine with hunting and eating game meat. You know, because then they’d technically be ideologically flexitarian and not vegan.
Just curious, do you not see how that would frustrate someone who is not vegan? If your goal is to be confrontational, that little speech definitely hits the mark, but if you’re not, perhaps reflect on the preaching.
Personally, eat what you want to eat. The more vegans and vegetarians around, the better those food choices will be for everyone.
Why would it be frustrating? It is just true. There’s no personal attack there, I’m not calling someone anything. It’s just reality, if you eat hamburgers that is what happened to get it to your plate. If you don’t think cows have feelings it shouldn’t bother you, if you think cows have feelings but they don’t matter very much it shouldn’t bother you, if you do find it bothersome to think about but eat hamburgers that’s on you not me.
Quite seriously, either you are ok with what you do or you are not. How is talking about it frustrating or confrontational?
I don’t feel bad when I prune a tree, and if you talk about rows and rows of fruit trees being pruned and how they’re slathered in nutrients and watered heavily to produce fruit before a harvester violently shakes them I feel neither confronted nor frustrated. I have no reason to even slightly suspect that treatment is wrong. Surely if feedlots and slaughterhouses are morally good or neutral I would at worst seem vaguely silly.
Ok, so I’m sure when you pick up your iPhone you’d love to have someone tell you how much abuse and suffering so many steps in the supply chain involve from the raw material harvesting, terrible working conditions to assemble them, etc.
Just pointing out that what you are doing is the literal definition of preaching. Not sure why you are surprised.
You know what, I would. If there is a problem that I’m unknowingly part of, it’s better to know and maybe do something about it than to ignore it.
I can’t say I will go live to a hut im the forest with no technology, but will at least be mindful of it and tried to minimize it. If I could afford a new iPhone, I’d certainly rather buy me a Fairphone. There are options and the options are a spectrum, not one or the other.
Yes actually, I don’t deal with problems by ignoring them. That’s uh, why I have a second hand phone.
See, when something I’m doing upsets me and conflicts with my self image as a person who tries to do good I stop doing that thing. What do you do?
Most people take moderate steps to do the same. It’s not just meat and phones though. It’s difficult to live in a globalized world without reaping the rewards of exploitation or suffering, directly or indirectly, somewhere along the supply chain. Most people do not have the free time or resources to micromanage their consumption, so most people have some habits which become unethical when scrutinized. When their habits are morally criticized, people tend to become defensive.
Do you limit yourself to botanical fruits, or does the suffering of plants not bother you? Surely you sweep the ground before you tread on it to avoid crushing insects. And I trust you don’t use any medicines or cleaning agents that might invoke genocide upon microorganisms.
Personally, I stopped being a vegan for several reasons, yet generally I source my meat either through ethical suppliers, or secondhand (on clearance, at the end of the sell-by date, when it would otherwise be thrown out). I’ve found that people are much more receptive to calm ethical conversations with a fellow omnivore than to Ching Hai, Food Inc, guilt tripping from a condescending vegan. Plus, the measured approach makes them more likely to listen to you about other ethical issues.
Edit: rule 5. Sorry
Preaching doesn’t mean lying or talking about unimportant things, nothing you said contradicts the idea its preaching.
Preaching is when you describe your beliefs in an attempt to convert other people, or to change their behavior.
I’ve definetly heard plenty of people making fun of or discriminating against others with dietary restrictions due to their religions. Hell I’ve also heard people making fun of others with lactose intolerance or celiac disease…
We can and should strive for better, but sometimes people can just be terrible 🫤
In my experience it is not NEARLY as prevalent as when someone learns that you are vegan or finds out about vegan communities and whatnot. People make countless memes about vegans for example, but when was the last time you saw a meme about someone choosing to eat Halal? Because to my knowledge there is no scientific study on the different experiences of these groups it is impossible to talk about this topic in any way that isn’t anecdotal but for what it’s worth I have been all over the US and the anecdotal experience that I have had is so overwhelming that I refuse to believe someone is arguing in good faith if they are claiming that, for example, someone eating Halal has even a remotely similar experience to that of vegans.
My guess is that this is because people tend to associate other dietary or lifestyle decisions as being just a different way to live. Like oh, that person is Muslim or Jewish and that influences their diet. And they don’t take that as a personal judgement anymore than they do when they learn that that person is Muslim or Jewish to begin with. But with veganism it is usually not something that a person is raised into. It is a decision that that person has made after learning more about the animal agriculture industry and it is usually for ethical reasons primarily. Not because a religious book told them to. Therefore they hear that someone is vegan and are instantly defensive in a way that isn’t true with halal, kosher, etc.
As you’ve said, this is all anecdotal, but I’d guess that non-vegan non-muslim non-jewish people most often have to “deal with” vegans as opposed to the other two. A quick search says that in the US there are more vegans than muslim and jewish people combined (without even including vegetarians, which definetly get lumped in the same group). Also, there are definetly other kinds of discrimination against the religious groups going on, so maybe their dietary restrictions doesn’t exactly top the list of things to “meme” about.
I’m definetly not saying that vegans are wrong or that they deserve the amounts of “jokes” on them on, far from it, I just wanted to share my experience with “jokes” in very bad taste.
I still remember fondly an occasion at a wedding when my friend group all got placed at the same table, and we were 90% veg with one couple who ate meat. They remarked on it, and we all spent the rest of the meal joking about how it felt to be the minority, and they had to field questions like, “If you were on a desert Island with only vegetables, what would you do?”
yeah the hardest part of being vegan is interacting with non vegans. gotta love how the default response to veganism (you know that thing we do to try to better the planet and animal rights and shit) is to argue as if doing something about the issues you care about is a negative trait.
mfs always got something to say and love attacking a thing that as far as i’m aware is proven to be better for personal health, the environment, your wallet, and animals.
Honestly I’ve been so quiet about it offline, and one time I just said no thanks to cake as I don’t eat dairy, etc, and the whole room alternately made fun of me and told me why I was wrong and meatsplaines until I got up and left.
i hear you - i’ve basically learned to avoid any topic or activity related to food with other people irl, which really sucks.
cooking is one of my favorite hobbies, can’t talk to my friends about it anymore. hell, a close friend from high school completely stopped talking to me because we had literally one very reasonable and civil (from my perspective) debate about veganism. it’s been years since i heard from them.
i got a single one of my close friends to even consider trying it, and i’ve been too anxious to even bring it up since last we spoke about it - a couple years ago now. they didn’t seem to believe in the ethics/lifestyle of it and i’m terrified of learning that this person i care so much about has decided that their sensory pleasure is worth more than the lives of the animals they eat.
my experiences with speaking about veganism to the people that i care about is that it is a taboo subject; one that will make other people upset with me and potentially ruin relationships. and i think that fucking sucks.
I even posted a picture of my dinner one night on Facebook, and it happened to catch a picture of my spouse’s dinner across from mine which visibly had cheese on it as he’s not vegan, and all my friends pounced on it and began haranguing me, they obviously thought it was hilarious.
One of my CW is vegan, and another staff member brought her a frosted cake, and just said to her “Oh sorry didn’t have time to get a vegan cake”, and stood there expecting her to eat it. Like what do they not get? We commiserate a lot. My spouse is also on a special diet for gastroparesis, which means he can’t have corn and legumes as well as other things, and that makes our mealtimes really fraught with arguments.
So I feel you. Most people don’t get it at all.
I love cooking, and while i don’t have any vegan friends that i cook for, i really appreciate my other friends just “trusting me” and eat whatever i cook for them. Probably the biggest and weirdest compliment i get is: “no way, that’s vegan?” It’s still a bit weird to be treated like an alien. Like when i cook for my sister and family, she always cooks “real food” on the side for people who don’t like it. Kinda bizzare, but whatever. I think it’s easy to cope with for me because i also don’t drink, and people absolutely lose their shit when they find out. “Never?” “Not even wine for dinner?” “You can have a beer and still drive you know.” “But it’s really good.” “You can hardly even taste the alcohol.” Or being a dude who doesn’t care about football around here. “What? You NEVER watch football? But you support your local team, right?” “So you only watch the euro championship?” “No? Only world cup?” “NO? But you still support your country?” People are just opposed to things they don’t understand.
Just decline without giving a reason
If pressed, say you don’t feel like it
We have a friend with an egg allergy, dairy allergy, and MMA. They’re vegan as well by choice but it’s made me very careful. I’ve briefly upset a few vegans and vegetarians by questioning them in a bit more depth. It’s happened much less over time as I’ve refined how I clarify and ask.
I’m always amused when someone says vegetarian. Okay, what type? Can I serve you cheese? Eggs? Fish? One of my coworkers is also vegetarian but eats chicken…which was new to me.
I thought the chicken one was just a meme from the 90’s because it was somewhat common for vegetarians to eat chicken. An old lady asked me if i eat fish, after asking me all kinds of other questions. She went: not even fish?? But they don’t have blood. What does that has to do with anything, and yes they do.
I think it’s religious? I didn’t have a chance to dig in at the time.
My primary concern was getting all the different vegetarians to identify what type they were. As an example one of them was lacto-vegetarian but was fine if eggs were in something (bread). I was laser focused on by feeding everyone with appropriate diets and allergy considerations.
Honestly thinking back I wish I’d had the time for more detail. We had someone with a lethal fish allergy and another with a crustacean allergy so never asked about sea food. Wonder if it was a religious and/or cultural thing to not eat pigs or cows.
I am changing my diet, but I am not fully “there” yet.
I have gotten a lot of traction by merely saying “today is not a meat day for me” when I order some things.
It’s way easier to eat at a veg-forward restaurant, but those aren’t always available, and often the food is expensive.
Just fyi, one of the community rules is “Carnist rhetoric & Anti-vegans are not allowed.” which is why so many top level replies are removed. I (and I assume many others) interpreted this post as “carnists, why do you do this?” but it’s NOT and per community rules we’re not allowed to explain or defend.
This is a safe place for vegans and we should leave it to them.
Sorry for imposing, I’ll leave now. Mods, maybe you should pin a post for people like me who wander in here without knowing that rule? Might cut down on the carnist replies.
Like naeva said comments by nonvegans are allowed. The rule doesn’t explicitly preclude anyone who isn’t vegan from engaging in conversation. What it does not allow is for bad faith comments, strawmen arguments (carnist rhetoric and the like), and those that are hostile to vegans (antivegans) to come here and as the OP would put it “meatsplain”.
I remove comments that are advocating for animal abuse, carnist propaganda, speciesism, and those made by antivegans.
Discussions about veganism here are heavily skewed as vegans are outnumbered vastly and it tends to be a sensitive topic due to cognitive dissonance. This makes it so that actual discussion is very hard as it often gets overun by reactionary takes and hostility to empathy.
Pinning posts has not helped in the past as most people don’t read it or refuse to listen to the message before commenting here.
I cannot speak for any other mod, being newly minted, but this is not a vegans only sub.
Respectful and contextually appropriate replies are welcome but replies specifically hostile or following standard, trivially disputed, rhetoric will be removed.
For example I would not remove a reply like “What is it that determines whether or not something or someone is ok to eat in your eyes?” but I would remove “don’t you know grass screams when you cut it. You’re just hypocritical!”
Basically if you’re posting stuff to own the vegans, explain why vegans are wrong, or saying something against veganism that a trivial search or five minutes considering the opposite position would show as false or grossly distorted your comment will be removed.
EDIT:
Just to add on to what I said. I think most of us would actually love to be wrong, if someone had strong evidence. Going vegan isn’t tremendously hard, but it is definitely harder than never thinking about food and eating/wearing/using whatever you feel like because the whim to do so takes you. Mostly it can be socially isolating, because regardless of how much empathy you might actually have for carnists (having been one yourself, there is no shame in having been indoctrinated) people will feel that you condemn them and consequently try to shame you. (there was some study about this but I’m struggling to remember the title).
If someone could show me evidence that idk dogs were mere reflex machines like Descartes maintained when he vivisected them I would chow down. It’s not really a particularly comfortable position to feel like you’re living in the middle of a holocaust and most of the people you love and respect are not only oblivious, but actively defend and relish it.
It’s just incredibly tedious to deal with the same set of disingenuous excuses. Like the aforementioned plants feel pain thing, I have never in my life seen anyone actually protest something like mowing lawns. I have basically zero reason to believe that anyone who isn’t a jain thinks this is true, and even then… what is it that animals eat and how does physics work?
I am currently working to make better decisions on what I eat and what products i consume. I’ve already switched over to chemicals and clothing that don’t test on animals or contain animal products. I’ve made changes to the diet, and I have taken “Meatless Mondays” out to only having meat once per month. I still eat eggs (I raise my own chickens), and I still eat honey (beekeeper). I haven’t had cows milk in years, but I really struggle with cheese. I’m getting there.
You’re right: it is a struggle. Your body gets used to what it knows. And if I can say it this way: I don’t think most carnists consume animal products specifically for the suffering of other animals. They do so because the food tastes the way they expect, the clothes feel the way they expect, and the products work the way they expect. I just don’t think that they think about it.
“Meatsplaining” made me cackle, what a word
- People are just disrespectful in general.
- Many folks browse all, and don’t even look at the sub. So they wander in, comment, and leave. I’m doing it right now.
Tourists without guides can end up in very strange situations.
Or with good enough guides.
If someone is going to browse all then they should be aware that they are entering different communities and be respectful of those communities. If they are disrespectful, whether it is a result of being unaware or just not caring, in my opinion that should warrant an immediate ban pending a demonstration of understanding and admission that what they did was wrong. Unfortunately even that might not make a noticeable difference since many of the disrespectful people are probably not repeat posters. Beyond that the only thing that I’m aware of that could really be done is making the community private which is obviously not ideal. Perhaps there could exist some middle ground of a community not being private but also not appearing on all but I’m unaware of if that’s possible or if it would even be any better in practice.
Cool,.that’s not how.people.use this app. I think your idea of delisting from all but being searchable is a good idea.
Never shamed a vegan, and I was one myself for 5 years. I think people get a negative impression of vegans because vegans so commonly share their reasoning, even zealously or evangelically so, unsolicited.
It gets annoying. And I felt that so much (in others) while I was a vegan that I stopped explaining why and just said “personal choice” when asked.
If someone wants the whole story, they’ll ask for it. We don’t need the morality, the economics, and the all-to-often (admit it) holier-than-thou diatribe vegans are so wont to subject others to.
As with any diet, moderation is the key.
I think “personal choice” comes off as slightly dismissive, as if it’s below your effort to even discuss.
Personally, I just go with “for ethical reasons, plus, its good for the environment” and I’ve never had anyone chuck a tantrum.
In my experience, the reactions depend a lot on the people you talk to and well, what you look like.
Like, I’ve got a tiny lady colleague who’s vegan and she’s never been in a conflict from being vegan.
Meanwhile, me as a big dude, I will get various males who take it as a personal affront:
- those who are just insecure about their own food choice,
- those who take every interaction with other males as a competition for who’s better (me telling them I’m doing it for ethical reasons means I’m saying their ethics are bad),
- those who are stuck in their old ways (women can eat salads, not men though),
- and last but definitely not fucking least, (ex-)military dudes who are personally disappointed that, despite me having the physique of their military buddies, I have different values.
This is especially also amplified on the countryside, where not only progressive ideas take longer to arrive, you’ve also got farmers with skin in the game.
In my hometown, there’s a pig farmer. Holy fuck, for that guy, my mere existence was a statement that his entire livelihood is immoral.
Edit: Lol of course.
Lemmy’s so small I can’t browse without posts from the vegan community showing up on front page feeds. Of course that’ll draw in anyone/everyone.
I think it’s because a good number of vegans are, shall we say, a little bit too vocal and judgemental about those that are not vegan.
If someone tells me they’re vegan, and I say cool, I do eat meat, and he responds with “you’re a murderer” then you are bound to get people looking weird at you
I wouldn’t call it “a good number.” It’s a very small minority. Outside of the memery of the militant vegan, I’ve never experienced a vegan preaching to me about dietary habits.
I say cool
not cool tho
I never had a meat eater stand up next to me harassing me for eating a salad while I was eating out.
The screenshot is obviously wrong. People will make fun of anyone for anything, anywhere and anytime. Problem is the disagreement on what’s acceptable.
I’m not anti-vegan. I know this sounds corny, but two of my close friends are vegan. In general I have wonderful meals with them. I will say that some of THEIR vegan friends can be pretty obnoxious and judgemental about others’ food choices in some circumstances.
That very often causes back and forth (and hurt feelings on both sides). I know it can be very offputting for a vegan to eat with a carnist, so I’m usually very conscious about what I order when I’m with vegans, but I honestly think not everyone understands that eating meat around a vegan can be an affront/insulting, which (generally) makes it different from the comparisons made here.
Religious food restrictions, in my experience, don’t involve disgust about others’ food decisions who don’t share those religious commitments. That doesn’t mean vegans who are disgusted by seeing meat being eaten is wrong or worse or anything, but I do think that’s partially where some of this friction arises from.
Unlike most religious or cultural reasons for not eating certain foods or drinking alcohol, veganism is often a morally “other-regarding” choice, which means it often comes along with judgemental opinions about carnists. I think that’s the main reason people can sometimes be rude towards vegans: I think it’s preemptive defensiveness for thinking they’re going to be judged.
I generally don’t eat meat around vegans simply out of respect. Similarly, if I’m eating with people who have religious or cultural dietary restrictions, I tend to just follow suit. I enjoy dining with people. I’m there for the conversation and company; eating something delicious that makes everyone comfortable isn’t much of a sacrifice.
which means it often comes along with judgemental opinions about carnists
I would disagree with this portion of your post if it said most or all vegans. I have found most vegans are making a personal decision without passing judgement on others.
Even so, there absolutely are militant vegans who want to shame others, and those vocal minority give the rest a bad name.
Source: Spouse is vegan. I am supportive, slowly changing my diet. Blood tests show really positive results. I still don’t understand honey.
I mean that’s not only vegans. On tinder i see a ton of militant meat eaters and anti vegans. Vegans or vegetarians literally say: i’m vegan, would be nice if you were too. While the other side of the coin is: real men eat meat, sorry not sorry. I eat meat, because i enjoy food too much. Please no vegans. I met one super annoying vegan in my life who said: eating meat is like paedophilia, once you fucked a child you’ll always be a childfucker. On the other hand every time someone puts one and one together and realises that i’m a vegan, they tell me how bad it is and how good meat is and that it sucks.
Absolutely true. It’s almost like a badge of “look at how bad my arteries will be in a couple of years.” I guess the vocal minority in a lot of areas probably give a lot of groups a bad rep.
I think that’s a reasonable criticism, however, most vegans (not all) see meat eating as an immoral act. Whether they express it or not, I have found very few vegans that don’t have strong opinions about flesh being consumed. Especially in front of them. I try to respect that.
I hunt, fish, and believe that domestically raised animals on small, well tended farms live a better life with less suffering and fear than animals in the wild.
Cortisol level tests support that. Being eaten alive by other animals isn’t exactly “better” than being eaten after being dead. And not knowing when/if you’re going to suddenly have your neck broken and then feasted upon by predatory animals while still alive and breathing, which I’ve seen many times, is nothing to sneeze at.
But factory farming is the most disgusting thing humans ever invented, and it is extreme violence, and I hate it with every fiber of my being. No living thing should be treated that way.
You are having regular blood tests? Is there a reason for this?
Yes. Some health concerns started me thinking about my diet. Regular blood tests in my case means one baseline to basically kick everything off, followed by another 6 weeks later, and 2 subsequent follow up.
The short version:
https://ko-fi.com/post/Unveiling-the-Bitter-Side-of-Honey-M4M5N7135
https://www.fastcompany.com/90457908/eating-honey-is-more-complicated-than-you-might-think
If you know anything about apiculture, then you know that it’s part of animal farming/raising (zootechny) in the same vein as pastoralism.
To be blunt, you’re the sort of person I try to avoid having dinner with. And I think that’s good for both of us.
The fact that you think your pleasureful experience is what matters is part of the problem. It’s not about you.
Eating a meal with friends should be a pleasurable experience. It’s not about me, it’s about us at that meal, which is what I’ve been discussing. I just get the sense that you wouldn’t be someone that I would have over for a vegan dinner party, you know?
You are quite literally projecting.
I have been a beekeeper for years. I agree that the bees are NOT in their natural habitat. However, I keep a significantly better control of the environment than the bees do in this habitat. It is better for the surrounding area, and I have talked my neighbors out of pesticide use because my bees will help pollinate their gardens and trees.
One extra note from the ko-fi article: I have never, ever heard of the practice of trimming queen wings. That is vicious, and I would never do that. Let the bees be bees. If they leave, I wasn’t doing a good enough job of supporting them. I am not a commercial beekeeper, though. Merely someone who likes being around them all year.
Edit: it looks like both articles really focus on commercial beekeeping. I don’t know where I will land on this. The honey I get is not food for the bees during the winter. Bees overproduce honey if the conditions are right. I only harvest honey that contains no brood (baby bees) and is separated from the laying queen. The food for the hive stays near the brood core, which is where bees stay during the winter.
I haven’t lost a hive yet during the overwintering process. I also have not substituted with any sugar feed. The only thing that I have supplied the bees is a 100% pollen “patty” from local pollen and water during the hottest part of the year.
I have never heard of a beekeeper gassing a hive with cyanide instead of “spending money” overwintering them (as stated in the fastcompany article). There is no cost to overwintering bees. You just wrap the hive in what equates to a blanket during the coldest parts of the year. The bees do a great job of keeping themselves warm.
Plus, why would a beek “gas” the hives when they could simply take the covers off and let the bees freeze to death? I presume cyanide is expensive. That entire argument is counter to itself.
Once again, I am NOT a commercial beek, but that seems unnecessarily complicated.
This is why I launched https://vegantheoryclub.org I delete the carnist posts lol
I support purging animal abuse “content”
Removed by mod
It is wrong though. Like you clearly care but what, it’s ok to do a little evil as a treat? why?
Evil is a relative term. I could argue that capitalism is evil, or buying things that can’t be recycled, or Catholicism. Maybe start with asking yourself how you justify doing things someone else might think of as evil before using it as some sort of magic bullet argument.
Forcibly impregnating someone, kidnapping their baby, and taking their breast milk is like when you buy potatoes.
If you said gold or diamonds I would absolutely agree with you. Potatoes? That’s mainly just child labor, wage theft, and giving farm workers cancer.
Sorry, trolls don’t get to request citations.
I don’t hate vegans at all, I hate people that are pretentious assholes about being vegan
Which is zero vegans.
Non-vegan here. I was going to reply one time, but even tho I was supporting y’all I realized it’s not really my place to speak. This community is supposed to be your safe space, and I respect that. I hope y’all have a good one and wish you all luck.
Gotta ask, if you support vegans/veganism I assume that means you take it as at least more right than wrong. Is that the case? if so what’s holding you back from joining our feeble, protein deficient ranks?
I just ask because personally I spent a few years being like “Yeah these people are correct and don’t deserve the hate but oysters? Is that really a priority concern?” before realising that was a baffling stance and I should align my actions with the 99% I agreed with and worry about the rest later if it ever came up.
Fair question. Right now I live with my family, and basically everything we make has meat in it and since I don’t cook I don’t really get a say in it. Everything I choose to eat for myself is vegetarian, so I’m at doing a little.
Even tho it’s hard for me to stop rn, it’s not like you guys are wrong about the horrible conditions and treatment of animals in farms so it would be hard for me to argue against y’all.
It can be difficult if you’re not managing your own food, you can of course choose what you wear or eat when you get food out and so on. That is vegan. It is not a purity cult, it is about doing what we can.
Thanks for sharing and helping me. <3
